Worth the effort of restoration?

[Deleted]

Hi all,

I'm as green as grass, new to both tools and caravans. As a 'challenging' project I thought...why not restore a caravan? So I can buy this one: www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/cooroy/caravan/caravan/1084292027
My goal is to make it a 'tow-able' bedroom. So it doesn't need any facilities other than a bed.

Apparently the caravan is tow-able. It has water damage in a few places in the structure and floor. The owner recons that the metal base is still in good condition. The caravan is empty. All windows are there, some work, some don't. The door doesn't close.

My question for you: How much time and $ would it take for a novice to:
- restore the metal shell
- restore the wooden frame
- restore the inside/insulation
- restore the roof and floor
- install electricity
- etc

Just a rough estimates would be amazingly helpful!

Thanks!

[atefooterz]

`G`Day, good price are you looking to make an interesting* workble interior or try to replicate what a Coronet is? A lovely blank canvas to home up skills. Do not worry too much about the time as long as you master the basics and beyond of the multi skill sets to do as much as possible. This can be an issue if others have already decided to travel thus causing discussions! Suss out 1978 fashion and events then use those themes patterns and colours.

[Deleted]

Hi pumped

Now by looking at the van you are thinking of buying, I am guessing you don't have a money tree or gold mine in the back yard ? or you would be looking at something in a better condition ?

It will cost you a lot more $$$$ in materials to restore/repair/recycle a caravan then to go buy a caravan in better shape.  But I wanted a particular type/model of caravan and I knew what I was up against, so if you are wanting an old caravan to bring back to life then that van is as good as any but if your just wanting a cheap caravan to be able to tow away 2 or 3 times a year to take to your fav holiday spot then you would be better off to save your hard earned $$$ and get something in better condition with less years and miles under it.

That van is only one of hundreds of "projects" that people have started and as soon as the money starts being spend on the repair/restore etc they suddenly find out it isn't cheap, and the other issue is time, if you go and read my recycle of our Millard that took me almost 4 months working on it daily and between 6-10hrs a day, plus I know what I was doing and had most of the tools and area to carry out the job.  And I still have to remove all the windows yet and re condition them.

It will cost you thousand's of $$$ - I would recommend you go to the Hall of Fame section and read some of the members who have repaired/restored etc an older caravan and the time frame as well.

Also  "So it doesn't need any facilities other than a bed". The cupboard's and the kitchen and the tables and seats etc are what gives the caravan and it's frame strength it is the reinforcing that supports the caravan so if that is not fitted back into the caravan then it will move and crack it's seals and leak.

So are you still keen on this idea ?? 

[Mustang]

What could go wrong for a novice  ?

We are all novices at the start, $800 wont break the bank.
The chance of towing something so disabled successfully is a big risk, how far?

Your intention of a bed only, makes it sound like you wont have it on the road after you park it, if so you may spend a few hundred/thousand, if you plan to restore to tow,
there is no pussy footing around, allow several thousands.
Absolutly go to the Hall of Fame, & read the threads of restoration.
Good Luck
Cheers

[atefooterz]

As i said above if you look at the $3000 per module for a tech course then mucking around trial & error with an old shell is cost effective..as long as you get mates with skills & or books to back it up. As Lockyer rightly says *you need to brace the inside so even if no cupboards then at least a few bars around to create a space frame. If you really get the bug and wish to play the classic/ vintage game then your next buy will be a good one to tidy up with what you learnt. Lurking around various sites i have seen some great shells come back to use fairl;y cheaply, just so far removed from being a classic but what the owners wanted. Very easy if caravan will just be on a property but lots more cash & attention to structural detail to make a registered tourer. What i enjoy reading is how many women with no or little start up skills are getting finished caravans done to a good standard in shortish time frames ( under a year). But usually no where near an original look or lightweight.
* Again if the van will be static then not a biggie to be unsupported... until you move position on the paddock!

[kharde]

I recently rebuilt my caravan with full air-conditioning toilet kitchen ETC . It was alot cheaper than buying a van with those mod cons. I reckon so long as you stick to your plan and don't put anything expensive in your van, I do not believe it will be an expensive venture... and may not be too complicated either. My complications happened when I installed the air conditioner and flush toilet.

The problem with your project is the wooden frame, I cannot see photos of it, but if it is rotten I would be a little nervous rebuilding the structural part of your caravan. Luckily my van was aluminium frame, so I could renovate with confidence.

If you want to make your job easy, try going to IKEA and buying their pine beds. They weigh bugger all, and are very cheap to install.

As a suggestion,
* wallpaper sheets of cheap plywood (I bought my ply secondhand), then clad the internal of the van
* 12v LED lights from eBay. Note you must install a circuit (dead easy... But circuit breaker is a must)
* 12v lab inverter from jcar to power 12v system
*240v diy PowerPoint's from www.caravansplus.com.au. zero chance of miswiring then get an electrician to install the circuit breaker and check your wiring.

Weight will unlikely be a problem, since you are likely stripping the kitchen, gas system, ETC.

Have fun with it, if done correctly you will save a lot of money. But word of advice, triple your time estimate for how long this project will take.

[kharde]

Fyi I have read contradicting reports of cabinets being used as structural strength in a caravan.... when I studied the size and particularly the location of the cabinets in my caravan(solely in the font), I could tell they added bugger all structural strength to my van. If my cabinets where needed for structural strength, they would have been on the sides of my caravan to stop sideways rocking of the van, not at the front where structural strength is not needed

All caravans have a lot of movement when towing, my opinion is so long as you use the correct seals when resealing your van, cracks will not appear. My van has been towed everywhere for 12 months and is still fully watertight. Admittedly I polished back every bit of mastic off every trim and replaced every damn seal. Took for ever

I was a complete novice when I started as well.... but I persevered, and it is surprising What You Tube and various forms can teach you.

[atefooterz]

One issue i see is that with a wooden frame you can see the condition and if areas need replacement then so be it then OK good for another 20 or so years. The Alloy frames, in light of known flex and work hardening are a mystery box with life span, from what i have read the pop rivets between sections would be key to a good or bad one. (elongated holes and loose rivets that stop the cracks in the alloy tube section) Just guess work as i am yet to check out an alloy frame old van... so far. Anyone curious about the top cupboards can play the shoebox and cardboard game.Take lid off shoebox hold at the shortest ends and twist. Cut out some square rectangular sections and tape them up high inside the shoe box.. now repeat the twist. As Kharde says try doing side ones as well then see how stiff it all becomes. In any jigsaw puzzle never let words like structural cloud the reality of non structural but supportive! Think of any internal areas attached to the walls,ceiling etc as stiffeners, rather than structural.

[kharde]

Now that you mention it, my renovated Caravan has many more cupboards in it then when it started - far stiffer.... But most certainly not structural.

Regarding aluminium frames, when i stripped my van back.... All the rivets (which were enormous) were dead straight. The frame looked like new. Admittedly it can be hard to visually see how much wear and tear steal has been placed under, but personally I suspect less risk renovating aluminium frame caravans than timber, but that is personal opinion.

[atefooterz]

Cheers Kharde is there a thread with pics of your alloy frame & rivet joins visible here? My new build will not have any frame as such due to holes & vibration/ flex affect alloy, water ants affect timber so i will just go for good ol carbon ring framing under glass. I am still keen to replace the lower sections of my classic with alloy... just because it will make selling it fun, down the track.

[kharde]

Here is a link to my van: ditzygypsy.proboards.com/thread/2980/man-van-18-viscount-1974

Note: I canNOT upload any photos there because I get the error
"Error: This forum has exceeded it's attachment space limit"

I'll wait a few days and try to upload photos again (The photos I'm trying to upload are only 200kilobytes big!!)


Now that I look at my photos: I suspect the alloy frame wear & tear happens if you try to rip the screw from the van (U can tear the aluminium). Since I angle ground most of my screws out (because they were too rusted to unscrew)... the frame did look very untarnished (and had not corroded like the screws).

atefooterz: note: Aluminium Channel has very weak structural strength if spanning medium to large distances. I learnt this from my Engineer father who recommended I give up using Aluminium to support the bunk beds I made ($60 ikea pine beds....). He recommended I use standard Steel for structural support  (was ALOT cheaper as well).

[atefooterz]

Jul 30, 2015 10:17:24 GMT 10 kharde said:

Here is a link to my van: ditzygypsy.proboards.com/thread/2980/man-van-18-viscount-1974

Note: I canNOT upload any photos there because I get the error
"Error: This forum has exceeded it's attachment space limit"

I'll wait a few days and try to upload photos again (The photos I'm trying to upload are only 200kilobytes big!!)


Now that I look at my photos: I suspect the alloy frame wear & tear happens if you try to rip the screw from the van (U can tear the aluminium). Since I angle ground most of my screws out (because they were too rusted to unscrew)... the frame did look very untarnished (and had not corroded like the screws).

atefooterz: note: Aluminium Channel has very weak structural strength if spanning medium to large distances. I learnt this from my Engineer father who recommended I give up using Aluminium to support the bunk beds I made ($60 ikea pine beds....). He recommended I use standard Steel for structural support  (was ALOT cheaper as well).

Thanks Kharde, images can be uploaded on any free remote site. Folks uploading uncompressed  1-4MB pics chew up the space on this site quickly. Imageba, upix.me or photobucket are good, use BB code [ img ] your pic http etc link [ / img]. Hopefuly Your Dad also advised you about how damaging holes are to alloy. Back in the day we used alloy to support the rig loads (several tons from all directions) on boats. Most of the small timber boats are gone but their space frame survived.. until alloy recycling hit a high in the late 90s early 2000s haha! Looking at the Ikea site for queen/ double gas strut lifting under matress storage  bed i can find close to what i am after but $500 approx, so i can most definatly make a stronger lighter cheaper one in carbon.

[kharde]

I'll give a go at uploading photos tomorrow then.... ( I don't have any photos of the rivets though. I recall the rivet diameters being easily 25% bigger than the biggest rivet from a standard rivet gun). They were very fat.

WRT my Dad giving me warnings of holes in Aluminiuum.... No; I think he was waiting for me to fail then tell me "I told you so". He gave me bugger all input. I'm very stubborn though so I managed to persevere and finish.

REgarding my reno job.... still pretty relaxed it will last; I sat with MANY beers staring and studying the old man Van (my neighbour calls it my dog house ). When I was renovating, I could see a slight twisting and tearing in the frame from the previous bunk-bed ; so knew immediately to be careful of the holes in the frame.

Things I learnt (on my own) to watch out for when renovating aluminium frame vans:
i) Predrill all holes in the aluminium frame to reduce chance of tearing. Bolt everything ( ie: tables/ bed/ cabinets); don't screw. Liquid nail the nuts in place so they cannot loosen (metal expansion/ shrinkage with temperature).
ii) match metals on the exterior to remove the chance of rust (I think caused by electrolysis)....
iii) Double time estimates. Metal is a BUGGER to work with

Still, my gut feel is my aluminium frame van will last longer than a wood frame. As I stated the frame on my 1974 van looked pretty damn good when I stripped the van back- alittle twisting and tearing caused by the old bunk beds, but part from that; very clean.... .

Having said all this... I am far from an expert (20 months ago I new nothing and had no tools).... so I still could have overlooked something....

[atefooterz]

Good advice there. What the dangers are is the temper of the metal, so a fast cool drilled hole is stronger than a blunter hotter hole, drill bits for alloy are always shaped to help this, when sharpening - just as the correct drill head shape when drilling stainless or mild steel vary. Some food for thought about a timber framed one is my experience. While the two rotted corner frames do nothing & the skin holds that side weight, my caravan has & is still happy zooming around , 7000+ klm so far! The skin in compression is taking the weight atm. Thankfully and what i checked out first is that no load bearing is on those areas, under  the fridge to front corner & rear bed corner, as both the fridge & bed are mounted onto the timber floor that is fixed to, like yours the floor onto a sub frame, not loading the sides of the structure.Twisting has now torn 3mm in the front area that was a crack after my return from Adelaide and is now a small 3mm tear after going up to the Sunshine Coast... Gotta love those flimsy timber framed Franklins But now is the time to do a proper repair before any serious damage occurs. These being a section of curves makes an alloy choice stronger than just being straight, the important part is to re temper that section, post bend, back to 5000 - 6000 grade spec.

[kharde]

Hmmm... that seems to coincide with my readings of alloys when I was trying to teach myself how to weld using youtube (now that was interesting experience).   

Does this relates to drilling thin aluminium channels though (is aluminium an alloy [sorry..... dumb question])? Both my specialised aluminium rivet drill bits and cheap tungsten tipped drill bits punched through the aluminium channel like it was paper... I recall the metal barely being warm directly after drilling. Have a play with an aluminium channel from bunnings and you will get an idea how soft the metal is.

Having said this - I do recall reading that the oxidisation process (cooling) of an aluminium weld can introduce significant weaknesses in the join.....

FYI: When it came to fitting my stainless steel splashback (alloy) for my kitchen (to fireproof it) - I definitely purchased the most expensive cobalt tipped specialised metal drill bits for this task - That is another story  (as well as ground through 3 or 4 angle grinder cutting plates). Drilling and grinding tough alloys is painful....

[atefooterz]

Jul 30, 2015 16:40:52 GMT 10 kharde said:

Hmmm... that seems to coincide with my readings of alloys when I was trying to teach myself how to weld using youtube (now that was interesting experience).

Does this relates to aluminium though (is aluminium an alloy [sorry..... dumb question])? Both my specialised aluminium rivet drill bits and cheap tungsten tipped drill bits punched through the aluminium channel like it was paper... I recall the metal barely being warm directly after drilling. Have a play with an aluminium channel from bunnings and you will get an idea how soft the metal is.

When it came to fitting my stainless steel splashback (alloy) for my kitchen (to fireproof it) - I definitely purchased the most expensive cobalt tipped specialised metal drill bits for this task - That is another story. Drilling and grinding tough alloys is painful....

I have never used alloy (aluminium) from bunnings, we used to source either aircraft grade or industrial from Comalco & overseas , back in the day. The lighter more exotic types are also more brittle. Have a hunt around the interwebs and learnhow  to sharpen drill bits for various tasks as an old rusty but well shaped newly sharpened one will out perform modern expensive green shead stuff everytime. Tis also about cutting oils!

[kharde]

Ha... I knew asking if Aluminium was an alloy was a dumb question. It has to be if there are different grades of Aluminium (Aircraft, 700x (for bicycles), etc).....

The aluminium frame in my caravan is much much much softer than the aluminium frame on my bicycle.... I even recall cutting sum of it with my electrical wire-cutters (with sum bending in the process).

[atefooterz]

Jul 30, 2015 17:07:16 GMT 10 kharde said:

Ha... I knew asking if Aluminium was an alloy was a dumb question. It has to be if there are different grades of Aluminium (Aircraft, 700x (for bicycles), etc).....

The aluminium frame in my caravan is much much much softer than the aluminium frame on my bicycle.... I even recall cutting sum of it with my electrical wire-cutters (with sum bending in the process).

Yep that softness is the sign that that stuff is still good, when it stftens up the troubles start. The issue with drills is mostly on annodized stuff, a bit like gal steel once through the metal is butter like.  I could safely replace my corner area with 30mmx30mm but it would look light on, so that is why i am after what the 70s way of doing the frame & sizing, popped sections to form corners etc, so i do not go overboard or too skimpy. I  have cut down an old mast to use as a bed base, maybe to replace the timber one in this van. I cannot see any issues with the short sections required but i am sure this old school 60mm diameter x 0.75mm wall stuff will out perform any bunnings channel, being a continous round shape helps

[kharde]

Gotta love those curves....

As you said earlier, your problem is not load-bearing, so so-long as you stiffen the corners somehow (even lightly to stop vibration ).....

Note sure if this helps: but a panel beater put me onto some putty called sealey's Knead-It - Steal... It's a tube of putty that when dries, will form a material (and bond) as strong as a metal and sticks like a weld.... (I used it to re-inforce some dodgy welds on my trailer frame ... good stuff). May help getting your reinforcing in there if you have trouble getting a drill into the section.

[atefooterz]

I have full access onto the sheeting from the inside of the van so can do the thing properly, the only flex is via gravity of the weight of the cabin sideforce, all other stresses are taken by outrigger bar onto the steel chassis. One of the reasons i have delayed repair is this issue you and others raise about timber frames, so far it is interesting and depends on floor versus wall mounted issues. The other factor of course is higly loaded up cupboards and bad packing with weight up high that will cause flex from the cabin onto the chassis. The harmonics vibration is not an issue with the good ol leaf springs & light truck tyres set to 38psi. ( I had to ride inside at highway speeds and different surfaces to see what was going on. Flapping would be much more an issue, with any loose bodywork with airflow! So even if a panel did break open on a trip the good ol gaffer tape would sort it until home, maybe a few layers if wet weather. As i pointed out in my thread the difference between the wish/ need list, in a garage, compared to the reality of using a caravan 24/7 - 365 is quite remarkable.