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Post by pisces51 on May 3, 2016 18:47:38 GMT 10
i'd be inclined to go a year earlier than Arthur - late 1970 or early 1971. Wish we knew how many vans Millard made each year in the '70s - would make life a lot easier for us.
They were up to chassis number M14000 at the start of 1970, and were probably building up around 6000 units per year in the first few years of the '70s when the industry was booming, and then probably dropping the annual production when the recessions of '73 and '75 (plus the oil crisis of '74) started to bite. So chassis number M18801 is 4801 numbers higher than M14000 which seems to be a reasonable number to fit into the 1970 production period. The triple-louvre windows were introduced by Millard about the middle of 1970, so the fact they are on your van suggests it was made later than that.
cheers,
Al.
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Post by captivenut on May 3, 2016 19:05:35 GMT 10
Sorry Al, I'm sticking with what I posted as confirmed by the most comprehensive record currently available (yeah, I know...I cheated) - Shelley's list in The Millard & York Caravan Owners on Facebook!...she's a regular caravan detective!
Cheers, Arthur.
Edit: According to Shelley's spreadsheet from sometime in 1970 to sometime in 1972 there were roughly 6800 Millards produced which averages to 3400 per year.
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Post by thehohars on May 4, 2016 9:14:24 GMT 10
We are now members of the FB group and have asked the question there.
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Post by bobt on May 5, 2016 0:20:32 GMT 10
gidday captivenut
my money is on Al.. He spent hours and hours searching Library Archives researching caravans, I would just like to suck some of that info out and post it in our Museum section.
bobt
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Post by captivenut on May 5, 2016 9:20:49 GMT 10
Hello bobt, I've followed Al's commentary for some years now on both Millards & Viscounts (cos that's what I've got) and yes I agree he is an incredible knowledge source and extremely helpful and probably pretty accurate with his assessments too. So I'm not wanting to get involved in anything that may sound critical of his efforts, on the contrary, I admire and respect his work. But if you (and others) care to join the facebook group that I mentioned above you will find the spreadsheet composed by Shelley (possibly the most comprehensive and scientific Millard & York chassis number list currently available), and it's growing as more and more informants add details about their vans. From Shelley's list M18801 slots in between M17626 (purported to be 1971) and M21006 (purported to be 1972).
The science: Unlike Viscounts (60's Ambassador range) that utilised both round & square wheel arches concurrently, it appears Millard changed from square to round and York from round to square at a set point in time. Also they changed from full pane to louvre style windows at some point in time. Shelley's spreadsheet lists these features and other important dating information. Other features, not yet researched, that may also help to pinpoint build dates such as the change from metal cupboard handles to plastic, and from vinyl floor tiles to full sheet vinyl floor covering, etc, etc.
Cheers, Arthur
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Post by pisces51 on May 5, 2016 11:42:58 GMT 10
G'day bobt and Arthur,
When it comes to the Millard brand, I very much do a lot of guessing about the approximate age. I like it when people come on the forum and can produce documented evidence of the age of their van. The evidence I put most value on is the Electrial Compliance certificate that can still sometimes be found stuck next to the fuse box. The date on that certificate would be the closest to the production date, I should think. Other evidence that is useful is the original purchase documents, but then there's the issue of how long the van sat in the sales yard before it was sold (unless it was a special order). If people demolish their van in the restoration process, there will sometimes be the chassis number and a date written in crayon on the back of wall panelling. In a lot of vintage caravans, people have found a date written on the inside of overhead cupboard panelling, or under the table, or inside the wardrobe. Sometimes people post a picture of the back of their fridge, including the installation certificate with the date installed.
All of the above can help in pin-pointing the most likely time period that the van was made. What we don't know about the various caravan factories is whether the chassis-making section was a "conveyor belt" style of production, where each chassis went from A to B in a single line throughout the production process, or whether the chassis were stocked-piled in a yard and the production line just grabbed the nearest suitable chassis and built the required model on top of it. I'm sure if we were able to line up all the chassis numbers in numerical order, we'd find some of the vans just didn't make sense compared with others around it. I've seen that when Millard changed from single-pane windows to the triple louvres in 1970 - a higher chassis number with single panes and a nearby lower number with triple louvres.
Arthur, I've managed to successfully avoid joining Facebook so far, so I won't be able to look at the FB page you're referring to. As long as she bases her findings on documented evidence, it'll be a reasonably accurate record. You might like to get her to include the style of Millard sticker on the individual vans, because they changed a few time during the '70s.
Back in 2010, not long after I finished restoring the Millard poptop, I had a couple of freelance writers do a story on my van, which was subequently published in the Caravan World magazine. As a result of that story, I was contacted by a fella who used to be a Millard salesman during the '70s. He couldn't tell me the chassis number range for each year because he said the numbers rose and fell from year to year. He still had a lot of the Millard brochures from his time in the game, but we never managed to meet up so I could get them from him (or at least copy them).
cheers,
Al.
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Post by bobt on May 5, 2016 23:20:25 GMT 10
gidday captivenut
No disrespect to anyone. I had a look on that site, no I didn't join it. The way I read it She was not confident of the date. A lot of stuff gets posted on Facebook and an awful lot is not factual, from a casual observer ie me and no knowledge of her or her resources I will stick with the one I know. I am confident that given time she could well compile a list of chassis numbers and dates that will be far better than what we have.
bobt
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Post by captivenut on May 8, 2016 13:31:54 GMT 10
More info: according to the facebook list between the second half of 69 and the second half of 73 there were 14448 builds. That's an average of around 3600 per year or around 300 per month. From confirmed dates, between early in second half of 73 and late in first half of 74 there were 5667 built in 10 months which is around 560 per month or 6720 per year. And in early 1974 over a period of 3 months, there were 1749 builds or 583 per month. So it appears that the builds significantly increased towards the mid 70's? Unfortunately there is still not enough confirmed data for early 70 to mid 73 to form accurate science for that period. But my previous assumption of an average annual production in the mid 3000's, so far, fits in with the collected data.
If the increase was exponential (J curve) then it may well be that yearly production in the very early 70's could have been in the very low 3000's?...but that's just a guess and not science!
Cheers, Arthur
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Post by pisces51 on May 8, 2016 19:56:55 GMT 10
Arthur, what is the chassis number in the FB list for the second half of 1969? I've always worked on the approximation that Millard were up to chassis number M14000 by the start of January 1970. And that was only a calculated guess based on the two stolen vans in the Millard history thread.
cheers,
Al.
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Post by captivenut on May 8, 2016 21:45:31 GMT 10
Hi Al, M13148 is the van I was referring to. It has a date stamp inside an overhead cupboard of 18/4/69. But being a stamp it is perhaps more likely to have been the plywood makers date stamp, so the build date would most likely have been some time later. However it's a lower chassis number than M13830 listed as stolen in Dec 69. So my assumption (not science!) approximates its build date was the second half of 69 - I was thinking maybe July - Oct?
Regardless of exactly where M13148 is slotted in (between April - Dec 69), it doesn't make a great deal of difference to the yearly average for the 69 - 73 period - it will still translate to something in the 3000 - 3800 per year range? But from 73 - 74 the average is 6800. So one can assume that there was an exponential curve in the yearly production - which could translate as much lower numbers for the very early 70's of perhaps 2000 - 3000? Which is what I based my estimate of 71 - 72 for M18801 on.
But in any case your M14000 estimate for the start of 1970 sounds about right and fits in with the list.
Cheers, Arthur
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Post by captivenut on Jun 18, 2016 13:54:01 GMT 10
thehohars Millard M18801 has now been slotted in as a 1971 build on the facebook page as more confirmed dates have been found. In all probability it was built in the later part of the first half of 71?
According to the list from about Oct(?) 69 to April 70 there were around 2000 units built - assuming consecutive numbers were allocated.
If indeed, as Al mentions 14000 was the marker for the start of 1970, then according to the facebook list of dated vans, approx 1171 units were built by the start of April 70 which would translate to 4684 for that year assuming the same production rate continued for the entire year
Between start of April 1970 to end of Feb 1973 there were 12,425 units built which translates as an average of around 4000 per year - which seems to indicate that at some point there was a downturn?
Cheers, Arthur.
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Post by atefooterz on Jun 25, 2016 0:53:39 GMT 10
RE Boom bust production numbers. From memory if we follow what was called "credit squeeze" First applied in 1961 and various hits later, what we might find is that the folks who bought caravans had the purchase options made for them, via the bank managers saying NO!  In the 70s Mum and Dad investors did not exist, so options were hire purchase... with insane rates, or if already in the game, change over regularly with a new caravan, so differential was low. Credit cards were not that wide among the population, so most Diners or Ammex holders would have flown and hotel, rather than treck, as work loyalty meant taking a month or two off to explore was not an option. Taking the family to a great hotel with big meal bills could be charged back via "expense accounts" and in reality formed part of most salary packages. |
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Post by twocutekelpies on Jul 10, 2016 6:40:30 GMT 10
Hi there, just to let you know I've been collating chassis numbers for Millards and Yorks as part of the Millard and York Owners Facebook page, some of them I've collected from this forum and many of the members in the group have contributed theirs, some have also found dates written/stamped in their vans hidden behind wall panels. I only have around a hundred numbers so far for the 60s and 70s but it's enough to narrow down other numbers to within a year or two of their make. Members of the group have access to the spreadsheet which only shows the chassis number and general external features, there is no personal information. I am happy to have anyone send me their numbers either to add to the collation or for info on their number.
Shelley
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Post by twocutekelpies on Jul 10, 2016 8:02:57 GMT 10
Hi all, the facebook list mentioned above is very much a work in progress and as numbers and dates get added, there is some shuffling up and down the years. I do stipulate on that list that the years are an estimation only based on dates found, hopefully with more numbers and especially dates, the list will become more accurate over time. So far though, I feel it has helped a few to at least narrow their caravan build date to within a year or two rather than a decade or no idea. Al, regarding the stickers, I rarely see them, but will try to note them where I can, thanks for that. I can only add features that I see in photos or which have been described, I haven't recorded hatch type or chassis type as I don't see them. A few things that have been revealed by the list so far - wheel arches on Millards were square until around 1970, then rounded for a little while then back to square around 1972-73 - so far all 1975 Millards have had the brown stripe but not all brown Millards are from 1975
- full pane windows changed to triple louvre windows in 1970, then to double louvre around 1977, then wind-out around 1978. (I know there was also sliding windows on the Sunraders in 1978) I recently found an advertisement from August 1970 which shows a Millard with triple louvre windows and a York with full pane windows to assist with that first transition, because of that article, a few numbers were shuffled including M18801 above which has now been placed in around 1970. The ad can be found at news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1301&dat=19700816&id=7MBWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J-UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2212%2C6575929&hl=en or in the Millard Media Album in the Millard and York Owners FB group I would love any confirmed details on transitions if anyone knows to help with dating. And thankyou Arthur, you give me too much credit Cheers Shelley |
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Post by Dougy78 on Jul 17, 2016 16:35:55 GMT 10
Hi,
I start to rebuilt a Millard Deluxe tandem axle M55299/VIN TR38995011. Could someone tell me what year this caravan was built, cheers.
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Post by twocutekelpies on Jul 17, 2016 16:55:02 GMT 10
Hi Dougy78, I maintain the facebook list mentioned above. I put M55299 as being from 1978. If you have a look at M54550 here ditzygypsy.proboards.com/thread/2475/1978-millard-16ft-m54550 they have a gas compliance plate dated 1978 and it's before yours, later 1978 the chassis numbers changed and no longer began with M. Before anyone mentions M55130 from ditzygypsy.proboards.com/thread/713 I know about that one's date and as it's so odd, I'm kind of ignoring it, haha. Cheers Shelley |
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Post by bobt on Aug 26, 2016 17:43:00 GMT 10
Folks I have moved all the chit chat regarding aging different Millards to General Dating MillardsI always appreciate the chats but want to keep the Museum topics about the brand and not individually owned models. bobt |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2016 21:49:32 GMT 10
Hi Shelley,
Thanks for your reply. That information helped me a lot. I have a CV which is the same year as I was born yay. I checked the gas compliance plate and yes there you can see the 78. Now I will continue that project for sure.
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Post by trevagreene on Sept 8, 2016 21:15:15 GMT 10
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Post by twocutekelpies on Sept 9, 2016 6:18:18 GMT 10
That's great, thanks Trevagreene, I don't have many dates for the early 80s so that helps a lot.
Shelley
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Post by trevagreene on Sept 9, 2016 9:11:33 GMT 10
That's great, thanks Trevagreene, I don't have many dates for the early 80s so that helps a lot. Shelley It's a camper trailer. Will dig out a photo |
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Post by trevagreene on Sept 9, 2016 11:33:17 GMT 10
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Post by captivenut on Jan 1, 2017 12:29:26 GMT 10
With yet another confirmed date to be added to Shelley's fb list it now looks like M17000 is pretty close to the start of 1971 (or end of 70?). So production for 1970 was around 3000 - 3300 units (or around 250 - 275 per month) - which is even less than what I'd previously estimated.
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Post by twocutekelpies on Jan 29, 2017 15:38:52 GMT 10
Hi jje, congrats on your purchase. I'd put that number at 1974/5. The fact that it has the brown stripe, I'd be inclined to say very early 1975. For some reason, all Millards from 1975 have come in brown, brown or brown. That said, not all brown Millards are from 1975 |
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Post by luckey73 on Dec 28, 2017 9:02:44 GMT 10
G'day everyone, new to the site.
i have a Millard i believe to be 1976/77 the chassis number is M41809. it has the original gas cooker, and inside the grill wall is a compliance sticker from 1976. has brown laminated cupboards with green wrap around lounge , also brown stripe
Although when i purchased it the rego label had 1980 millard...i think its wrong
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In the 70s Mum and Dad investors did not exist, so options were hire purchase... with insane rates, or if already in the game, change over regularly with a new caravan, so differential was low. Credit cards were not that wide among the population, so most Diners or Ammex holders would have flown and hotel, rather than treck, as work loyalty meant taking a month or two off to explore was not an option. Taking the family to a great hotel with big meal bills could be charged back via "expense accounts" and in reality formed part of most salary packages. 
