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Post by atouchofglass on Sept 16, 2008 6:53:31 GMT 10
Thought it might be interesting to see what others use silicone and other sealants for I need convincing that it is useful on caravans..... Having recently removed a fair bit of it and still having more to go around the windows... So who out there loves the stuff hates it or just uses it where needed... And .... where would you use it?  Cheers Atog |
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Post by atouchofglass on Sept 16, 2008 6:57:05 GMT 10
On the other sealant side
Matrix industrial grade FC (fast cure)
is the poor sister of Sikaflex Marine grade
Does a marvelous job
ONLY if you don't want to remove it ever again.... ;D
Atog
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Post by keelz on Sept 16, 2008 13:01:12 GMT 10
i'm using Sikaflex Pro 2HP Sikaflex FC cheap bostik or parchem paintable poly's for sealing around floor penetrations for pipes, conduits,etc so i can paint it when i eventually re-paint the underside of the plywood flooring. Haven't tried the Marine stuff yet - i see the $35-40+ price tag for one tube and......eerrr.....aarr......  Also tried a couple of the Bostik and Parbury alternatives.....but seem to go always back to the sika - something about how it tools nicely when you finish it with a finger "on the turps" ;D mainly polyurethane stuff so it won't dry out and crack. Previous owners of my van had smeared standard roof/gutter or translucent silicon stuff all around windows, roof trims, hatches.......it's good for about 6-12 months in the sun then it dies. I guess if you're after a quick fix   ;D I've spent many hours scraping, brushing, rubbing, etc to remove that c#(@. cheers Keelz |
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Post by mike on Oct 3, 2008 15:15:56 GMT 10
I carry a tube of Selleys All Clear in my grab bag of stuff when we go touring.
I've used it very effectively to 'temporarily' (which becomes 'permanently') seal that leak that suddenly appears wetting the bedding, or clothes or even the slow drip right over the table!
No it wasn't me after a few home brews....
I know the fibreglass Olympics wouldn't know what these pesky leaks were, but even they could suffer from a leak successfully sealed by smearing a thin layer of Selleys over the outside of the rear window frame which had corroded producing very small pinholes in the aluminium. The rain continued, but the van was dry once again.
Cheers and homebrews
Mike
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Post by atouchofglass on Oct 3, 2008 17:53:31 GMT 10
Hey Mike While in principle I could see your point of carrying a quick fix. It is a sign of bigger problems if your roof or window leaks. It would be a sign to me that it was time to remove the window and remedy the problem. Stops a good weekend being destroyed but apart from that......  Cheers Atog |
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Post by mike on Oct 6, 2008 12:43:51 GMT 10
Hullo Atog,
Thanks for the reminder, about hidden problems...
Yeah, I get your drift, and I know where you're coming from. Some of the repairs I've seen you do in other threads would make any tradie go weak at the knees with their complexity and attention to detail that you put in. That rosewood cabinet work inside your Olympic would make anyone gag with its refinement! But I love the concept of glass vans. I used to own a few fibreglass boats, not all at once, but they were so easy to maintain/repair compared to the timber boats of other boaties. In fact more time was spent on maintaining the timber trim on all those boats than anything else.
I've done a few big repairs to date in these areas... sometimes you just have to do something!! But I've never pulled a whole window out yet.
Ive been busy replacing a bedside cupboard top which had deteriorated so badly (that chipboard stuff) that had been affected by water leaking in from another roof leak that had gone un-noticed for who knows how long. I'm happy with a 7ply lacquered finish (6 coats estapol) with the old gold trim re-attached.
That roof leak was stopped by some Selleys AND two coats of accryllic white paint on the roof.
But I know I'll have to eventually do something to fix it properly. (That fix by the way was done four years ago and is still dry.)
Cheers and homebrews
Mike
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Post by atouchofglass on Oct 6, 2008 17:38:50 GMT 10
Hey Mike I feel all embarrassed now    Thanks for the praise about the cabinet work Always said photos tell lies ;D ;D ;D Most of the work I do is as simple as possible in construction even though it looks complex it is easy to do.... just time consuming Wait for the overhead cabinets and doors....  ;D ;D Buy a few mags on woodwork and some tools and you will be doing far and away better than anything I can do The reasons I go for fibreglass vans 1 Easy to repair the shell with fibreglass patches 2 Low to no maintenance except for painting the outside after 40 years 3 They are a bit different and people comment on them 4 I can spend most of my time on the cabinet work as that is one of my hobbies 5 No leaks unless poorly maintained ..... Having worked for a shipwright also helps with fixing windows, fibreglass and cabinet work That by no means detracts from other caravans.... I would give my left..... for an airstream.... all aluminium exterior Absolutely love the 50's curved interiors of many of the bondwood vans And think the teardrop vans (mostly ply) are a terrific alternative if you want a short and fast weekend away In short any vintage/classic caravan is worth saving if you love it... I just had to pick one style and have stuck with it... fibreglass Besides ... I'm too lazy to fix the shell as well as the interior and the running gear and the paintwork.... etc ect.... Cheers Atog I use to be a member of the lazy club .... but couldn't be bothered to go |
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Post by keelz on Oct 6, 2008 19:18:31 GMT 10
I should add - i've successfully used a couple of tins of a product sold by Camec called "Caravan stop leak". When i first bought a tin of the stuff, the bloke in the store told me to "clean all the loose stuff off the roof and around your hatches, etc, however look out this stuff will really stick like s#*& to a blanket!!!" Well he was right, successfully put a few white skunk strips on my clothing too! ;D Volatile stuff, dries very quickly and maintains flexibility. Good for waterproofing your roof seams, over rows of pop rivets at the seams and the hatches, etc and perimeter junctions to ally angles and around... my roof had lots of silicon on it which had become dry and cracked due to the harsh effects of the weather. This white paint on stuff is great, wirebrush or scrap back all the rubbish and old putties, etc, clean down area with turps/solvent, then get painting with the 'stop leak'. Works a treat Sit back, admire leak free roof, then throw knackered paint brush in bin. also good if you want a cooler roof, paint the whole roof with the stuff, a white roof is cooler. Atog i know your glassy roof already has that feature Cheers Keelz |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2009 13:00:10 GMT 10
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Post by millard1399 on Feb 26, 2009 19:29:20 GMT 10
G'day All, I've been studying all the information I can find about appropriate sealants for the Millard, and I'm now more confused than ever!! The Millard had two different colours (and types??) of sealant used around it. One was a cream colour that had dried and become brittle. This was used mostly around the outer mouldings and on some of the windows. The other sealant was a blue/grey colour and was used around the door frame, and on the remaining windows. There doesn't seem to be any reason for using one type on some windows and the other type on the remainder. The two types have aged in a totally different manner over the 30 years of the van's life. The blue/grey sealant is still very pliable and sticky, and as a bonus is extremely easy to get off the aluminium. The cream sealant is almost as bad as the dreaded silicone stuff to remove. This photo group shows the cream sealant remaining on the outside edge of the cladding. Notice how it is dirty from pollution getting into the gap after the sealant had dried out. The other photos are of the blue/grey sealant, showing how it is still in relatively good condition, with only a dirty edge to it from the same pollution...  Having looked at all the different brands and varieties of sealant available, I'm b*ggered if I know how people can reach a decision. Sika has no less than 17 different sealant products, covering Transport, Marine, and Automotive. Selleys have at least 3 that are non-silicone based, and others that are silicone. Then you've got the V4 and 5CLM sealants made by Rhodia and sold through the Caravan parts websites. And then to complicate matters, you've got the Hardings Caravan Services website (see Wahroonga's post above and click on the word 'professionally' at the bottom), who say that all caravans should be checked after 10 years for sealant integrity. So what am I going to do?? The nearest product I could find to match the blue/grey type of sealant in the Millard is a Sika product called Sika Lastomer-710. Here's the blurb: "SikaLastomer-710 is a butyl rubber based sealant, for general use in joint sealing. The sealant does not harden, therefore permitting if necessary, eventual dismantling of elements joined with SikaLastomer-710. SikaLastomer-710 adheres to a large variety of materials without the use of any primer, including glass, aluminium, wood, metal, rubber, plastics, etc. SikaLastomer-710 has good resistance to water, dilute chemical products and marine conditions..." This Sika product is not stocked by Bunnings, but can be ordered as a "Special Order" on a per cartridge basis. Current price is $7.52 per 300ml cartridge (is cheaper on the net but check postage on top). Only downside to the Sika 710 is that it only comes in BLACK Would have preferred white, but it looks like Black is back in fashion for old Millards I rang the Technical section at Sika for advice before making my decision. They recommended Sikaflex 521 UV as it is the sealant used for caravan manufacture. Comes in White or Black, but sets solid. If you ever want to remove parts from the van, you have to cut the sealant with a sharp knife. Far too much information... Maybe just get a roll of Glad-Wrap and seal the van up that way!! ;D ;D cheers, Al. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 19:58:40 GMT 10
That's why I sort of liked the Caravans Plus 'Ezycaulk' plasticised butyl rubber sealant.
It's white:)
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Post by keelz on Feb 26, 2009 20:58:56 GMT 10
Al, the creamy dried out stuff is more than likely old Butyl mastic or a putty stuff they used to bed down the perimeter angles, hatches and seal the windows to the van with.....it's crap as you have discovered..... but this was the best manufacturers had back in those days. The mastic drys out and goes hard, loses its seal. Butyl Rubber or Ezycaulk stuff - is going to dry out, fall out or lose it's integrity just as above after a while in aussie conditions. I've used some of it at low level on my van and it's not the greatest stuff to work with. Can't say i'm impressed with it compared to Silicons or urethane sealants, although it would be very easy to remove for say windows, door frames, etc if you wanted. My dislike with it is so slooooow curing that everything airborne will stick to it in the weeks after the intial application - eg if used where there is a section exposed to atmosphere..... i guess the reason why it is prone to leaking after a few years if it's easy to pull off even though its supposed to stay goooey.... Now - Silicons. Not convinced about using Roof & Gutter silicone to seal roof trims and roof seams even though the "experts" say to use it. Some reasons why: It was used on my van by previous repairer of the van (done by an 'expert') and guess what - it leaked like a sieve. I'm still removing sections of it from my van's roof at present and gradually repairing seams, re-doing roof trims then i have to remove and reinstall the hatches! I've already completed re-sealing of the near side when i installed new annex track. Cleaned old stuff out, new urethane sealant, bedded down, screwed down, loads of excess squeezed out to ensure no gaps for water....it's messy but hey who said fixing a 30 yo van was going to be easy Whilst Selley's and you beaut plumbers silicon people all say it won't crack or dry out etc - what they don't tell you is that after a few years in the extreme heat and cold and movement/expansion - it's going to lose adhesion from surfaces and the water gets in under it. I've seen the same thing in work situations- roofers and plumbers using basic entry level silicon based products - only to see a gutter, flashing, roof penetration etc leak during a building 12 months defects period with the stained ceilings below to boot!. I've used roof gutter silicon on gutter mitres, gutter laps at home and where water tended to pond, i've had leak problems after say 6-8 months even with super duper prep work. Ripped out and replaced with alternative waterproofing....... you can't paint roof and gutter silicon. if you smear the stuff around and try and paint later on.... you won't be able to touch up the paintwork on your cladding or roof or adjacent to windows, door trims, etc. The paint will bubble and never adhere in those areas unless you remove all traces of silicon residue - if you try and do this scraping you risk undercutting the silicons seal sometimes. There are other options in the Sika you can get at local Bunnings without special order. eg Sika technique Marine (the blue cartridge) which is a Marine grade or perhaps Sika 221 sealant in White. Where i've used Sika i've fixed my water leak problems have been resolved. Without wanting to take a pot shot at the expert van repairers - of course they aren't going to recommend the most expensive joint sealant because they want to have the customers van back in their workshop in another few years after their warranty period is up on the re-sealing package ready for the next re-seal! ;D ooops did i say that out loud, darn cynical mind..... ......Bostik and others also have some cheaper alternatives in Marine/automotive sealants. Bugger to remove, but hey do the job right and you probably won't need to revisit for a long time. I don't know about you but i'm sick of fixing leaks and sick of being up a ladder. So when it comes to the choice of a $5 or $10 tube of Silicon as opposed to a decent grade urethane sealant at $15-20, I want to do the roof trim re-sealing once, not 2 or 3 times Things like fridge panel i'm going to use the butyl mastic because it achieves the job and i can reinspect it easier and often for decay and remove the panel readily if required to access the fridge without knives, swearin' n cursin. Cheers Keelz |
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Post by atouchofglass on Feb 26, 2009 22:00:52 GMT 10
Hey Guys Have to agree with Keelz Sicaflex marine grade is the go Or Matrix FC the cheaper sister Once had to remove a steel window frame from a Navy landing barge bridge We had previously fitted it with Matrix FC ..... steel frame on steel wall Tried cutting it out but the fit was such that the blade only cut about half of the Matrix out Got a bottle jack against the frame and an external steel ladder Tried to push it apart Bent the ladder ..... it was thick steel ...... didn't get the window frame out.... cut the window glass out and reset it with matrix.... Why take it out... Was part of the annual maintenance..... it wasn't leaking..... Go figure the military spending... Cheers Atog |
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Post by keelz on Feb 26, 2009 22:16:44 GMT 10
Gotta luv that As they say sticks like s#(& to a blanket! ;D Keelz |
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Post by boblor on Mar 20, 2009 9:33:47 GMT 10
Hi All
I will add my two bobs worth to this subject.
Window sealant -- I use and recommend SikaLastomer 511 at $7 a cartridge for sealing your windows , it come in a beige colour and is a non skinning product, thus allowing movement between the body and the window and still maintain a seal. The window is also easy to remove for any maintenance down the track. A cartridge will do an Olympic van with the spit type windows, so $7 for a water proof van sounds good to me.
Adheasive -- I use Sikaflex 252 at $25 a cartridge, it has some flexibility eg will stand vibrations. It will bond any two products / materials and great to work with. As some of you know I am currently restoring Olympic Riviera chassis no. 35 and now up to my fifth cartridge and it is doing a great job, timber to timber , timber to fibreglass, plywood etc.
As I come from a carpentry/ building inspector background I find both these products great, and I consulted Sika's Technical reps in Sydney and Brisbane and they both recommendeed these products for the uses mentioned.
Roof sealing -- I have used a product called Therma- Shield on three Olympic vans to date and found it a great product. It not only seals your roof but insulates it as well, reducing temperature up to 7 degrees on the inside, -- this was evident at Maroochdore recently when the visitors called they would say "it nice and cool in here". It is an acrylic based product.
I hope this is of some help to those of you who are restoring or doing maintenance to your vans.
Cheers boblor
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Post by atouchofglass on Mar 20, 2009 17:59:17 GMT 10
Thanks Boblor
Will keep that in mind for the roof of my Olympic when I get to that stage
cheers
Atog
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Post by millard1399 on Aug 10, 2009 18:40:47 GMT 10
I went to Bunnings a couple of days back, and tried to put in a "Special Order" for some of the SikaLastomer 511 cartridges. I even printed out the Sika fact sheet for this product, and handed that to the person at the desk. She then had to ring Sika to get a price quote and quantity requirements. I was told the cartridges were $22 each and I would have to buy a box of 20 cartridges! When I checked on the internet today, there are three on-line sellers quoting prices from $4.10 to $6.00 per cartridge with no miniumum quantity. So I dunno who's having me on, but needless to say I told the Bunnings girl to FORGET IT! Boblor, where did you get yours from? cheers, Al. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2009 19:02:00 GMT 10
Don't Bunnings have an .... 'if you can find a cheaper advertised bla bla bla' |
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Post by millard1399 on Aug 10, 2009 19:48:16 GMT 10
Yeah, wahroonga, I should test them out, eh!!? Dunno what's going on with the Sika pricing. As I said, I handed the Bunnings girl the Sika fact sheet from the Sika website for the product. She held it in her hand while she phoned the Sika Sales Dept. So there was definitely no misunderstanding from my end about what I wanted. Sika didn't have any in stock at the moment, and weren't getting any new stuff in until next month, and then they dropped the bombshell of the price and minimum amount. Maybe I should go to another local Bunnings store and see if I get the same story. The cheapest on-line store is in WA but postage back to me might be a killer! $4.10 for a cartridge, and then probably another 10 bucks to post it over... Al. |
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Post by atouchofglass on Aug 12, 2009 6:02:24 GMT 10
Hi Guys Tried to test them out a year or so ago on a tin of decking oil Talk about a court issue Needed to know everything and didn't really live up to the hype It was like I was trying to rip them off.....  Tin of Cabots decking oil (4 litres ) was about $38 cheaper at the local paint store They say they are the lowest prices but are far from it Convenient yes .... cheap ...... not bl.... likely Needless to say I bought at the local paint place Cheers Atog |
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Post by millard1399 on Aug 25, 2009 21:50:01 GMT 10
Today, I finally got around to going to another local Bunnings store and seeing if I got the same result as the first store about price and quantity for the SikaLastomer 511. And guess what??...different story . Obviously the information you get depends on who is at the other end of the line at Sika. Today's information was $6 per cartridge, and no minimum quantity. Much better than the previous information of $22 per cartridge and minimum buy of 20 cartridges. I quickly put in a Special Order and paid for 3 cartridges before anybody changes their mind. cheers, Al. |
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Post by kiwijim on Aug 25, 2009 22:38:31 GMT 10
Hey Al, Don't we have fun at Bunnings........... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Remember the old saying......If at first you don't....................... I see in the news tonight, Woolworths are buying into the Hardware market, Apparently they will build super stores to out match Bunnings and will be offering American goods, ;D I may hold off buying another BBQ for a little while "ah" ;D ;D ;D Cheers kiwijim  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2009 13:03:13 GMT 10
Hey atog,
Liked your little bit about the landing barge bridge window frame. In the RAAF we weren't allowed to use the clear silastic RTV sealant on any aircraft, or aircraft component, due to its great ability to corrode aluminium real quickly. If you got caught using it, in my experience it was one of the few instant tech. chargeable offences.
There was a blue stuff we used to seal up electrical components, just can't think of the name at the moment. Eureka, I have it. It was called Hylamar. It didn't go hard or lose its sealant or flexibilty characteristcs and you could paint over it and the paint didn't bubble. I used it successfully on the many P-3 Orion flap assymmetry switches I overhauled at what used to be 2AD at Richmond.
We would pull the switches apart, send the cases over the road to be seed blasted while we got all the parts together for the o/h. When the case came back we would prime the inside and inside of the cover, the reassemble all the internals, solder the wires to the plug, put a bead of Hylamar around the cover and plug, screw them into place, wipe the excess hylamar off, test the switch electrically and if it passed test, put a plug cover on the plug and send them off to the paint shop for painting, then when we got them back we'd send them off to the P-3 maintenance squadron at Edinburgh. Hylamar was great stuff, somewhat expensive, but great.
Cheers,
Ross.
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Post by millard1399 on Sept 15, 2009 22:44:06 GMT 10
SikaLastomer 511How much?: $6 per cartridge Where from?: Bunnings "Special Order" desk. SikaLastomer 511 is designed for "standing seam roofs" to seal the vertical overlaps in the roof seams. It comes in an off-white colour only. The cartridge has a moulded nozzle integrated into the end of the cartridge. The nozzle is pre-cut to an angle. The bead extruded is approx one quarter of an inch diameter. If you need a smaller bead, one of those screw-on nozzles can be slid onto the cartridge nozzle to make a smaller opening. Sika Lastomer 511 is VERY sticky! It is also fairly "stringy" when you pull the cartridge away from the job (like fine spider web trails). Fortunately it is easily cleaned up with mineral turpentine (turps). After about two days, the surface dries to allow you to touch the sealant without getting it stuck to your fingers. But if you break the surface, it will still be very soft and sticky underneath. The product does not harden over time, so Sika says.   The SSR on the cartridge is the abbreviation for "Standing Seam Roofs", and the bottom right photo shows an example of such a roof. Notice the cartridge says: "Not for exposed perimeter use." Nowhere in the Sika website information did it say this. It's not until you get the cartridge that you read this 'vital' bit of info. There's no explanation of why it shouldn't be used in 'exposed perimeter uses'. In most caravan end-uses, it will be exposed around the edges of fittings/windows/door frames/etc. I will let you know in ten years time whether this sealant has been any good or not. cheers, Al.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 6:48:09 GMT 10
As usual Al, .... full of vital info and a laugh at the end. |
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;D I've spent many hours scraping, brushing, rubbing, etc to remove that c#(@.
;D ;D
