Caravans ways to safely load snd set up

[78466noM]

I thought I would start this in a hope that people who have a lot of experience with towing and setting up will fill it.
    Getting close to the holidays there will be more people with out a clue I thought if even only one was help it is a big start .
  the reason for starting this is because in the last 7 days I have seen 2 vans both classic. The first one was a about a mid seventies duel axle (twin axle ) behind a BA falcon station wagon it had a set up on the back very heavy duty with a 4-5mm plate I assume  for carrying a motorbike that would make it very heavy on the rear when a bike was put there but its problem when I spotted it was the nose of the falcon was pointed to the sky and the rear wheels were in the wheel well to the top of the rim. The second was a little pop top looked in very good condition air-con sticking out the side wouldn't be helping the frame any but it looked to be set up for a 4x4 tow vehicle big standard 4x4 landcruiser style tires  and looked like the axle was swapped to under the springs being towed behind a vehicle with a low tow bar.  I am going to assume both have only just been purchased  especially the pop top. so in the hope this fills up with advice for the inexperienced people hey even a few experience people may find a easier way to what they know now .  

[snoops]

My 2 cents worth is all about keeping the weight over and just forward of the axle/s. Hanging AC's, bikes, multiple spares, jerry cans, etc on the back of the van is asking for trouble long term IMO. Fine when things are going well, but if they have to swerve or brake suddenly, the pendulum effect will cause the death wobbles to start. The only weight in my van that's behind the axles is the bed. It tows rock solid straight even at 100kph - I've had friend following me and they were very impressed how stable it was. I've conducted some swerve tests and emergency braking with it (under controlled conditions) and it stays straight no matter what I do. I did find that some of the cupboard doors come open and deposit thier contents on the floor doing this though...

I bet there's plenty out there that have no idea how thier vans would react in these circumstances.

[tasmillard]

As you all know, I am a video (visual) leaner

[bobt]

Great Topic Guys

It is amazing the number of people that hit the road and have no idea. Sometimes you have to feel sorry for them other times... well..

That "Caravan Stability Video" has been around for awhile it is a good indicator of how the movement of weight impacts its stability but it is only part of the story. You have to have the right set up too or it will sway regardless of where the weight is.

I will start with one you have no control over, the position of the caravan axle(s) if the axles are too far forward then your going to have trouble, we had a single axle 18' 1983 Viscount that would wag its tail everywhere if you put so much as a handkerchief on the back bunk, an extended drawbar may have helped it. The axle was forward of centre.

(2) The caravan has to be level behind the car or a bit nose down.. an inch (30mil) too high will have the van waging its tail, regardless of how much weight you have forward of the axle(s).

(3) Tyre pressures the challenging one too soft or too hard and it will move about just right is what you want.. look at the recommended pressure on the tyre wall you will need to know your weights to be able to work it out.

Take a look at the Caravan Council of Australia web site. Lots of good info on there.


On Boxing Day we drove home on the Hume Fwy from the daughters place in Wangaratta, we saw a lot of caravans heading North. Vast array of new ones and a significant number of 'Classic's' The bit that stood out for me was the poor setup of a lot of the Classics heading North, they would have been a nightmare to tow..

This is just the beginning..

bobt

[atefooterz]

Sometimes i stalk a waggly classic, when at a rest stop or servo check out whats going on, unless a bundle of kids bikes 3 tyres and a chequerplate tool box is bolted onto a heavy aftermarket rear bumper bar, where by design there was none.

I think many underestimate what a few modern heavy matresses can do, compared to a slab of Clark rubber foam the boffins test drove a prototype, once, may have done.

An issue not often stated is inertia, regardless of balance the heavier the end/s are the more chance of enigma.

[Deleted]

FWIW we have recently been through the whole "Instability" scenario with our '68 Viscount behind the Honda CRV it towed like a dream at any speed in fact home from Sydney it was at the speed limit everywhere 8hrs from Heathcote to Casino and then just override brakes.

Being pedantic I put it up on stands and although it was brand new never used except for the trip home stripped out the whole suspension replaced all the rubbers reset the leaves and painted then as well as a tidy up under neath which was needed after 48 years in a shed on blocks then went for a test tow with the Zephyr around the streets and great all good . We then went on a planned Vintage Van weekend at Esk and all was good out to the highway but there it all turned to ##it it was a pig on a string over 70kmh and any wind or passing trucks made it worse we increased tyre pressure on the van dropped them on the front of the Z all made small improvements we took off the 2 bar wdh and things improved enough to continue after Tweed heads :? coming down off the gateway bridge going slow as possible 60kmh no throttle and a Linfox truck went past boom the caravan all of a sudden needed 3 lanes and with overide brakes no way to stop the van all I could do was boot the Zephyr and hope , we got it straight and then slowed all good , end result was 2 badly scrubbed new tyres and 2 white wall inserts knackered not happy . A Stop at a mates place Barry Davidson who used to build Phoenix caravans and now owns Caboolture caravan repairs to pick up some books from him and much discussion re the problem(as might be expected with Barry ) then with the large box of books under the table we proceeded to Esk all good no wind no freeway no passing trucks 60-70kmh no sway same on the trip home no wind quiet day being sunday no wind no wdh etc . I could not get it in my head that it was my beloved Zephyr it MUST be the old van so home changed the brand new 8ply 155x13 LT tyres which looked too small for 8ply 175x13 LT nothing changed also removed the old 8" friction drums and replaced them with a set of 10" electric brakes with a brake controller in the car still no change but now I was in control when braking  did the weight check van was 870kg no water ball weight was 70kg Zephyr was strangely only  1100kg Honda 15000kg so plastic is heavy :? . A new water tank was fitted in front of the axle instead of behind like the old one which had btw disintegrated when filled for the first time ever  which when full gave a ball weight of 105kg ( books were long gone ) still no change towed it with the Honda and Suburu forester it was a dream more consults with Barry and he with Adrian,had to be tyres . The Zephyr had white wall 2ply radials very pretty but 185/80x13 too big for the 4.5" rims and meant the rims were walking within the tyre balloon  so we replaced these with the same 8ply 175x13 LT on the caravan and bingo no more wobble the wdh is back in use to just transfer 20kg to the front of the car and it is all good 80-90kmh is easily achieved trucks do not overly affect the rig when passing and I would say my critical speed from testing is close to 100kmh but under that it is all amazing , I did give it one burst to 110kmh on the freeway with the Zephyr just to test this .

I had changed a couple of things inside which affected things but had weighed what came out compared to what went back in , the click clack fold up couch in fact weighed 3kg more than the replacement frame and double bed innerspring mattress and we had added a 120ah battery inverter and charger in a cupboard in front of the axle which compensated for the removal of the old 2 way fridge so we went from a tare of 860-870 kg .
My point is with this long tome it is many factors all the esc or sway control in the world would not stop this problem it was not a caravan problem but a tow vehicle one and once the problem had been identified and solved all was good Barry's friendship was a blessing in this case but had I not been so blinded with my adoration of the Zephyr I would no doubt have solved it quicker :oops:
One point I neglected to mention was I moved the pole carrier from the rear bumper to forward of the step during testing after everything else was done and this small factor also increased stability at speed .

[Mustang]

It was told to me that:
"30kg of weight on a rear bumper becomes 300KG at the wheels, during a waggle."

Personally I think radials are too soft for trailers/vans . I use Light Truck tyres, they can take 60PSI we run 50psi.(45 cold)

I will measure ball weight of Vincent, my bet its around 100kg as the spare wheel, gas & tool box are on the front extended tow bar, & the annex is under the front seat
it tows very well for a 17' 6" single axle.

[Deleted]

Dec 28, 2016 7:49:09 GMT 10 Mustang said:

It was told to me that:
"30kg of weight on a rear bumper becomes 300KG at the wheels, during a waggle."

Personally I think radials are too soft for trailers/vans . I use Light Truck tyres, they can take 60PSI we run 50psi.
I will measure ball weight of Vincent, my bet its around 100kg as all the heavies are in the front, but it tows very well.

The radials were on the car Brent the van had 8ply 155x13LT from the start which I switched to 8ply 175x13LT for more balloon and wider tread grip , I ended up with the same tyres on the car and they drive fine without the van and also with the van .
PSI depends on weight for ours the recommended psi is 45 van 45 rear of Z and 35 front 50psi would be like rocks on a 1 ton van   
A simple test believe it or not is put max pressure in tyres then find a quiet street and get a piece of gyprock/chalk and draw a line maybe 2" wide across the tyre drive straight for 50m and go look at the marking if just the middle of the mark is gone reduce the pressure by 5psi and re do with the right pressure the wear will be full tread .
Then go for a 20-30 min drive and recheck pressures up to 4-5psi is acceptable any higher the pressure in the tyres is TOO LOW when cold which means the flexing of the side walls is creating too much heat , strange as it seems tyres are killed more by too low a cold pressure than too high 

[bobt]

There are a lot of factors involved in keeping it on the straight and narrow..

Retired John. Love to sit down with you mate and have a chat..

[Deleted]

Dec 28, 2016 22:19:01 GMT 10 bobt said:

There are a lot of factors involved in keeping it on the straight and narrow..

Retired John. Love to sit down with you mate and have a chat..

To teach , learn or share knowledge   You never know it may even happen pending what happens re the Z and van although the chance of getting them both to Vic is remote the motorhome is down there on a regular basis visiting no 1 son 

[doublechevron]

The zephyr findings are interesting. I've towed some very stupidly overloaded loads behind crappy old Citroens ( I towed a huge walk in coolroom from Geelong to Ballarat once behind the CX turbo. It used a full tank of fuel to do that short trip ) Rock solid the whole way.

The eariler tyres only run about 26psi. The period cheese cutter michelin X's ... I have been known to ( often ) roll over onto the sidewalls around corners. They are a very, very soft tyre. Yet I've never had any of the issues you describe. Infact, the old Citroens are the best towcar bar none I've ever strung a load behind.

seeya,
Shane L.

[boblor]

Hi All
My two bobs worth. The 'the rule of thrum' is 10%-15% of the Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) should be on the ball, the closer to 15% the better it will tow.In this case a Tare wetght of 870 kgs has been quoted, one then would assume a GTM for travel would be 1150kgs, so a min. ball weight should be 115kgs but ideally 12% 138kgs it will tow better.
Now tyre pressure. It is stated 175x13 LT are used The Tyre and Rim Association recommend 275 kpa or about 40psi with load 1110kgs GTM. It is true that the tyre will take 65 psi but do not recommend over 50psi as they have built 15psi safety margin on all LT tyres. This caters for that unforeseen pothole.
Cheers boblor

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2016 13:10:20 GMT 10 doublechevron said:

The zephyr findings are interesting. I've towed some very stupidly overloaded loads behind crappy old Citroens ( I towed a huge walk in coolroom from Geelong to Ballarat once behind the CX turbo. It used a full tank of fuel to do that short trip ) Rock solid the whole way.

The eariler tyres only run about 26psi. The period cheese cutter michelin X's ... I have been known to ( often ) roll over onto the sidewalls around corners. They are a very, very soft tyre. Yet I've never had any of the issues you describe. Infact, the old Citroens are the best towcar bar none I've ever strung a load behind.

seeya,
Shane L.

Yes but we are talking highway speeds not walking speed   and 90km might be ok at slow speed in a day but we often do 3-400km   

The issue was the tyre was far too big and should never have been on the rim so the rim moved around from side to side within the balloon of the tyre even at 50psi which was way too high .
The LT radials are smaller cross section and 8 ply walls so with even 45psi the rear of the car does not wobble 

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2016 13:16:48 GMT 10 boblor said:

Hi All
My two bobs worth. The 'the rule of thrum' is 10%-15% of the Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) should be on the ball, the closer to 15% the better it will tow.In this case a Tare wetght of 870 kgs has been quoted, one then would assume a GTM for travel would be 1150kgs, so a min. ball weight should be 115kgs but ideally 12% 138kgs it will tow better.
Now tyre pressure. It is stated 175x13 LT are used The Tyre and Rim Association recommend 275 kpa or about 40psi with load 1110kgs GTM. It is true that the tyre will take 65 psi but do not recommend over 50psi as they have built 15psi safety margin on all LT tyres. This caters for that unforeseen pothole.
Cheers boblor

Not sure where those guestimated weights come from  this is an overnighter van not a tourer   weight when we went to Evans head was 960kg with water so 105kg worked out fine the expert 's current thoughts are that up to 12.5% is perfect over that is excessive and can cause instability . I doubt you could find a new caravan in Aust with a ball weight over 12% and in Europe 5-7% is the norm with the main mass centred over the wheels , which funnily enough is how the old Viscounts were made with kitchen on 1 side of the wheel well and wardrobe over the other . 
15% on the ball would be way over the odds imagine a Land cruiser 200 series towing a 3.2T caravan as many do with a 480kg ball weight , the Toyota has a max ball weight of 350kg allowed from memory many that can tow 3.5T have a 250kg limit 

Lots of good reading here by Collyn Rivers

caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/caravan-and-tow-vehicle-dynamics/

[doublechevron]

Dec 29, 2016 14:38:34 GMT 10 @retiredxjohn said:

Dec 29, 2016 13:10:20 GMT 10 doublechevron said:

The zephyr findings are interesting. I've towed some very stupidly overloaded loads behind crappy old Citroens ( I towed a huge walk in coolroom from Geelong to Ballarat once behind the CX turbo. It used a full tank of fuel to do that short trip ) Rock solid the whole way.

The eariler tyres only run about 26psi. The period cheese cutter michelin X's ... I have been known to ( often ) roll over onto the sidewalls around corners. They are a very, very soft tyre. Yet I've never had any of the issues you describe. Infact, the old Citroens are the best towcar bar none I've ever strung a load behind.

seeya,
Shane L.

Yes but we are talking highway speeds not walking speed   and 90km might be ok at slow speed in a day but we often do 3-400km   

The issue was the tyre was far too big and should never have been on the rim so the rim moved around from side to side within the balloon of the tyre even at 50psi which was way too high .
The LT radials are smaller cross section and 8 ply walls so with even 45psi the rear of the car does not wobble 

She'll be right mate



It's the dynamics as much as tires.  Think 124" wheel base (longer wheelbase than a huge old chevy impala) ...  The towbar is right at the rear wheels, it's as close as you can get to a 5th wheeler setup with a standard sedan (ie: the towbar is mounted pretty much right on the rear axle).  Then you have center point steering, high pressure hydraulic load sensing brakes, hydraulic self levelling suspension ....  and a weeny little 68hp motor desperately chugging along trying to move it all (on the early 1960 versions).   Fun right

The hydraulic citroens have pretty much won every "European towcar of the year" award right through to the current times where 4wd's have taken over the market even in European countries.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Deleted]

My understanding from a neighbour who is Citroen mad is that they can only handle very small ball weights and legally tow maybe 1300kg and then they struggle on hills   best of luck moving that thing   I once towed a empty horse float home with a Morris 1000 ute by necessity but it was under 30km and a quiet country road with no hills was not fun in 2nd and 3rd gear not an experience I would care to repeat  

[boblor]

Hi Again
My comments were made for a single axle,and from figures quoted in previous posts. Every one to their own. I have studied this subject for over 20 years and helped many people set up their vans. Over and out on this post.
Cheers boblor

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2016 23:03:43 GMT 10 boblor said:

Hi Again
My comments were made for a single axle,and from figures quoted in previous posts. Every one to their own. I have studied this subject for over 20 years and helped many people set up their vans. Over and out on this post.
Cheers boblor

Bob my comments were not a shot at yourself those figures you quoted would no doubt be viable with a modern vehicle but the Zephyr is 50 yrs old my comments were based on knowledge gained from experience and from what I consider 2 of the best in the industry Collyn Rivers a published engineer and author (caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles-index/) and another friend Barry Davidson who owned Phoenix caravans for many years and now runs Caboolture Caravan repairs with his sons (www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/news/2016/call-for-caravan-industry-royal-commission-57011) 
The rule of thumb in the 60's was never tow anything heavier than the tow vehicle and best practice was keep the trailer 10% below the tow vehicle's gross , so my Viscount is right up there at the max for this car.
It is not a Ford specific problem it affects all old vans and year appropriate cars towing them . This is  the only reason we do not in fact own an Olympic which was my first choice for a VV 
As I said initially the van tows like a dream with our Honda CR-0V also with a mates Subaru both of which are heavier and modern so ball weight is not such a problem and tow bars and their attachments have improved a lot in 50 years .
So I guess what I am trying to say is I did not pull the facts out of my a### and was not trying to pick an argument if it was seen that way I apologize ! 

[doublechevron]

Dec 29, 2016 16:22:32 GMT 10 @retiredxjohn said:

My understanding from a neighbour who is Citroen mad is that they can only handle very small ball weights and legally tow maybe 1300kg and then they struggle on hills   best of luck moving that thing   I once towed a empty horse float home with a Morris 1000 ute by necessity but it was under 30km and a quiet country road with no hills was not fun in 2nd and 3rd gear not an experience I would care to repeat  

The DS's ?  They have an 1800kg tow capacity (very large for a vehicle of it's time).  The early ones are simply to low powered to tow much with.  The later ones with fuel injection maybe barely adequate, but I don't have enough faith in there cooling system to tow anything in warm weather with one.   In cool weather I'd tow anything I needed to with one if I was stuck without the Range Rover for any reason. 

This is the Citroen I've always used for towing.  Power has never been an issue.  Its a 1985 CX2500 GTi Turbo I, my father imported it from the UK about 20years ago.  It has similar pulling power to my V8 Range Rover.



Note:  not quite as good as a DS, but see how close the towbar is to the rear axle.  Most big v8 american cars had the back axle in the middle of the cars, so you throw a heavy load on the back, and the wheels are like a huge pivot point.  The front lifts, the headlights search for koalas, the tail drops to ground.   Towing with these concentrates the towbar weight almost directly onto the rear axle rather than pivoting against it.... Oh, and that axle also levels as it's hydraulically suspended

They look so weird 'cos the back wheels are in the very corners, not 2/3rds of the way down ( well it's one of the reasons they look so weird).  I have no hesitation towing any classic 'van with one   Well don't tell anyone, but I've towed many a car trailer with it over the years ( "slightly" overweight I'm guessing ).

Oh, your Zephyr, it's not a Ute is it ?  The idea of towing with a ute has always concerned me as there is no weight on the rear axle unless you load the tray with something!

seeya,
Shane L.

[atefooterz]

Some nice google Citroens
The 5th wheeler..


Old school boat and caravan...
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/17/cd/28/17cd284cee8278e072da5908a23bcc6a.jpg

[Deleted]

Mmmmmm my car and van is my profile pic definitely not a ute   as for overhang the majority of cars and 4wd my Z included have the ball at 1m or less from the centre of the diff ( The Z is 905mm) the only units further back are as you say American and dualcab utes , the US units fair well because of their longer wheelbase the dualcab utes not so well and often bend their chassis if too heavy a load is placed on the ball   have you measured the distance on your Citroen's you may get a surprise .

The other point worth mentioning is no amount of hydrolic's on the rear axle can transfer weight back to the front it is basic physic's   weight on the ball will remove weight off the steer in ALL vehicles the article here is a good basis for understanding this even LR's and Jeeps which claim to be capable of reversing the laws of physics 
caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/caravan-nose-weight/

[Deleted]

Can you even begin to imagine towing this lot ? the Z is a 1957 model and the caravan is 30' long the people apparently towed it on a regular basis from Sydney to Melbourne and Adelaide mmmm and I get concerned about my little 15'6" ally framed Viscount 

[doublechevron]

Dec 30, 2016 9:51:36 GMT 10 @retiredxjohn said:

Mmmmmm my car and van is my profile pic definitely not a ute   as for overhang the majority of cars and 4wd my Z included have the ball at 1m or less from the centre of the diff ( The Z is 905mm) the only units further back are as you say American and dualcab utes , the US units fair well because of their longer wheelbase the dualcab utes not so well and often bend their chassis if too heavy a load is placed on the ball   have you measured the distance on your Citroen's you may get a surprise .

The other point worth mentioning is no amount of hydrolic's on the rear axle can transfer weight back to the front it is basic physic's   weight on the ball will remove weight off the steer in ALL vehicles the article here is a good basis for understanding this even LR's and Jeeps which claim to be capable of reversing the laws of physics 
caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/caravan-nose-weight/

Oh, your avatar doesn't show up here.  I reckon the  modern twin cabs are unsuitable for towing from an engineering perspective.  My Range Rover is poor as a tow vehicle as the rear axle is simply to far forward, which forces you to use heavy weight distribution bars to try and get the front wheels back down on the ground with some weight on them.

Take the popular ones ...eg Dmax



Every single kg you add to the tray is swinging behind the axle.  now put a 350kg tongue weight way, way, way back there with a huge haymen reece tow kit ... and you leverage point the caravan is swinging from has got to be 2+ meters behind the rear axle.  The idea of towing with it (especially with a load in the tray) scares the hell out of me.   Your weight distribution bars trying to get the front wheels back on the ground must be imposing incredible forces against the towed vehicle.  Pretty sure these twin cabs then break there chassis when you head off road due to the forces involved if you google "broken chassis".

seeya,
Shane L.

[doublechevron]

Dec 30, 2016 9:51:36 GMT 10 @retiredxjohn said:

Mmmmmm my car and van is my profile pic definitely not a ute   as for overhang the majority of cars and 4wd my Z included have the ball at 1m or less from the centre of the diff ( The Z is 905mm) the only units further back are as you say American and dualcab utes , the US units fair well because of their longer wheelbase the dualcab utes not so well and often bend their chassis if too heavy a load is placed on the ball   have you measured the distance on your Citroen's you may get a surprise .

The other point worth mentioning is no amount of hydrolic's on the rear axle can transfer weight back to the front it is basic physic's   weight on the ball will remove weight off the steer in ALL vehicles the article here is a good basis for understanding this even LR's and Jeeps which claim to be capable of reversing the laws of physics 
caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/caravan-nose-weight/

That's for sure.  Your not applying any of the rear axle load to the front.  However your not **removing*** it like you do when you back suspension fall downs and the front wheels lift.  The car is still level, which means a correctly loaded caravan will still be level ...  so if it's a twin axle it's suspension will be correctly sharing the load.

Eg: when I don't have a caravan on the old Citroen.  the back brake do nothing ... they just cruise along for a ride.  Now I drop my caravan on .... the rear end of the car slams down to it's bump stops.  The nose doesn't lift.  I start the car, the rear end lifts up.  Now the pressure feed to the rear brakes is the rear suspension circuit.  So there is now huge pressure in the rear suspension circuit to lift the back of the car back level....  Now becase there is huge rear suspension pressure, we have huge pressure being applied to the rear brakes.    The stability of the thing with the huge wheelbase and self levelling is incredible.

Now if your worried about none of the weight being transfered to the front wheels, get some weight distribution bars, and pull them up.  The back of the car will lift, the front will drop.  Wait 15 seconds and the car will correct itself.  The back will drop back down, the front will raise.  The car still looks the same, but if you put wheel scales under each wheel, you will have more weight on the front wheels to aid steering and brakes.

It's brilliant.  It's just a shame I can't be a big heavy 4wd with Citroen suspension so I can get some decent tow capacity ( and being citroen they'd put the rear axle 2 foot further back than everyone else so it's more stable).

seeya,
Shane L.

[Deleted]

Just for you Shane