|
Post by bobt on Aug 8, 2012 21:40:19 GMT 10
Gidday Al
Now if I recall correctly there was a little bit of concern somewhere about the weight associated with a front kitchen.
Where is your water tank?
I am a bit surprised the move of the spare from rear to front only gave you half the weight of the spare. What are you using to measure the towball weight?
One other thing I just have to ask. Where is the axle located in relation to the centre of the van?
Keep us posted with your progress.
Bobt
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 8, 2012 23:12:44 GMT 10
G'day bobt, Here's a schematic diagram of the Windsor, showing the relative "distances" from the centre of the wheel... Remembering my high school mathematics, Length 1 x Weight 1 = Length 2 x Weight 2. If a spare wheel (Weight 2) at the back weighs 20kgs, then Weight 1 at the coupling can be calculated as follows: Weight 1 x 3850 = 20 x 2750 Therefore, Weight 1 = 20 x 2750 / 3850 Weight 1 = 14.3kgs Take the 20kgs spare wheel off the back, and the ball weight increase at the front is 14.3 kgs. I use the beam balance method to measure the ball weight, with a set of bathroom scales on one side of the beam balance. There may be a small error in the accuracy of the scales when I get up to weights around 50kgs or so, but they are accurate when I put a 20 litre drum full of water on them. cheers, Al.
|
|
|
Post by bobt on Aug 9, 2012 22:03:24 GMT 10
gidday al
hmmm.. bugga... pondered a bit over your challenge
What your using to calculate the towball weight is going to be consistent.
Looks to me like it might have been nice if the axle was a little closer to the rear. Not something you can change easily.
Well you want to do the big one. Consider starting here, 2nd gas bottle on the front (9kg) A tool box on the draw bar between the gas bottles and the front wall, perfect for the blocks of wood, sullage/water hoses power leads and those other little bits we all need. Build a battery box in the kitchen cupboard the bottom front far corner one where ya have to get down on the floor to reach the far side of. I assume you know the one I mean. Put a deep cycle battery in. Move the spare wheel to the front too.
This will help......... your going to have to be real careful about what you put in the rear of your van.
Don't feel too bad I have the reverse problem.. all my storage areas are in front of the axle not much at the rear, fully loaded it is 229ks on the tow ball
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 10, 2012 10:02:57 GMT 10
Yeah, it's proving to be real challenge to get the weight distributed appropriately. I'm running around like a mad scientist at the moment, adding things into the van and checking the impact on the ball weight. I've loaded the front half of the inside of the van with as much of our stuff as I can fit into all the nooks and crannies. That added 69kgs of total weight. I then rested the spare wheel on the front drawbar, to add another 20kgs of weight. The ATM is currently 1272kgs, with a ball weight of 130kgs, so I'm spot on at the moment (10.2%). The big problem is that there's nothing loaded in the rear half, so anything put behind the wheels will subtract from the ball weight. The only other stuff we would put in the front would be the food in the pantry cupboard and the fridge. Maybe the food would weigh another 30kgs? And maybe 15kgs of that weight will add to the ball weight? (The cupboard/fridge are about half way between the coupling and the wheels). Filling the water tank up with 60 litres will add 13kgs to the ball weight, due to the location of the tank just forward of the wheels. Other than that, I'm running out of options, so some lead saddlebags like they use on racehorses might be the go on the drawbar. Having the wheels a further foot back in the chassis would be a significant help, but the wheel arches would then encroach on the ability to freely walk around the island bed. Whoever designed the floor plan back in 1992 probably used the "free access bed" as their starting point, and designed everything else around that. This Windsor van certainly destroys the myth that all front kitchen vans are overly front heavy. cheers, Al.
|
|
|
Post by bobt on Aug 10, 2012 21:58:24 GMT 10
gidday Al
My Windsor had a front locker apart from that is was much the same layout as yours. The wheel arches intruded into the bedroom but were not a problem, so it may have had its axle back a bit further then yours.
It followed along very nicely, never once gave me a moment of concern. We packed our gear evenly from end to end. One occasion when it was serviced the dealer checked the tow ball weight, if I recall correctly it was about the 180ks. Sorry never ran it over a weigh bridge, so can only guess at what it weighed.
10% is not a hard an fast rule but a guide. If you look at some of the european vans being imported their towball weight is a long way off the 10% mark. The location of the axles in relation to the centre of the body is an interesting one to see. And you cannot use weight distribution hitches with them. They do have a coupling that inhibits sway. I have a couple of friends that own 23 footers and they love how they tow. Quite a few of the european SUV's 4x4s have a rather low towball load capacity even when they have a high overall towing capacity.
Go add a tool box on the draw bar and sit a battery in it. How about some water balast up front somewhere.
Keep at it you will get it to a stage where it is all good.
Have you taken it out for a run at highway speed since you've done the reshuffle?
Bobt
|
|
|
Post by drylander on Aug 10, 2012 22:56:13 GMT 10
should never have left the classics Al. its karma getting at ya. ;D Pete
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 10, 2012 23:45:13 GMT 10
G'day bobt, That's true, but you need to be careful about which era of caravan you're talking about. Caravans built in Australia up to at least the 1990s still work to the "aim 10% but accept 10 to 15%" ball weight guideline. The European vans you mention are aiming at about 7.5% ball weight. Try doing that with vans from the era of this forum, and you would be asking for trouble, I reckon. One of the most interesting stories you can read is a 2006 Coronial Inquest Report concerning the death in 2004 of three members of a family in a road accident involving a caravan they were towing. If you've ever read any of the early editions of Caravan World magazine from the 1970s and '80s, you'll be familiar with the name Tom Olthoff, who wrote technical articles for the magazine. As I understand it, Tom is now retired, but back at the time of the Inquest, he was called upon to provide an opinion relating to the caravan in the accident. I think I'd be a lot more comfortable if the ball weight on the van was at least 10% when the van is fully loaded, so I'll be doing whatever I can to make sure that happens. I haven't done any road testing yet to see what effect the changes have made. I need to get a spare wheel bracket put on the front drawbar, and then see what room I've got for other weight bearing equipment there. cheers, Al.
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 11, 2012 10:58:36 GMT 10
G'day kylarama, Yeah, I'm thinking the Classic Caravan gods are not looking down upon me very favourably at the moment. This morning I had to ask some of the local elders if they could perform a ceremony to rid the van of any negative spirits. For a while there it looked like we might have to sacrifice a virgin, which made our female dog get VERY nervous (she's the only one who would qualify ). What I also did this morning, was to take the rear bumper off... ...and weigh it: 26kgs. That means the ATM so far is reduced by 26kgs, but the ball weight is now increased by 18kgs. Bewdy! I think I might be getting somewhere. I've now got an ATM of 1246kgs and a ball weight of 148kgs (11.9%). That starts to give me some leeway for putting stuff into the rear of the van. Looks like the rear bumper has to go, and the spare wheel definitely has to go on the front drawbar somewhere. When I now do calculations for the front and rear internal loadings, it looks like I might get to balance it out correctly. Hope so... cheers, Al.
|
|
|
Post by Caprinut on Aug 11, 2012 11:34:51 GMT 10
Al, No everyone parks their van on persian carpets. I hope she flies well over the roofs. What about a alu bumper bar at back for those reversing little knocks? Peter
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 11, 2012 11:50:52 GMT 10
Ha ha ha, Peter ...I scabbed that roll of "persian carpet" off the footpath somewhere in the neighbourhood, when somebody did a clean-up. Us old fellas like a bit of comfort when we have to crawl under the van to do a bit of work. Sure beats cold concrete any day! ;D I hear what you're saying about an aluminium bumper. I really wanted to keep the bumper there, for the very reasons you express, but weight-wise it can't happen. I'll look into getting an aluminium version, and see if my wallet likes the idea. cheers, Al.
|
|
|
Post by kiwijim on Aug 12, 2012 3:39:54 GMT 10
I've got a funny feeling that the " Classic Gods" are definitely not happy with you Al, I spotted the Millard having a whisper to your new van in that Pic of your recently departed rear bumper. I am just wondering, with all this calculating of the ball weight, have you taken into consideration the varying difference of the full and empty water tank, ? You will have at least 65kg extra weight there when the tank is full, and I see by your sketch that your tank is forward of the axle, adding weight to the ball. kiwijim
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 12, 2012 9:23:53 GMT 10
G'day kiwijim,
Yeah, I've done the calculations on the water tank. Assuming it holds 60 litres (60kgs), then 13kgs will transfer to the ball weight, and the other 47kgs will be transferred to the wheels.
It's an option I'm keeping in my back pocket in case all the other ideas I have don't work out. We normally don't travel with the water tank filled, because we're usually within eyesight of a tap, so I don't bother wasting petrol carting unnecessary water (weight) around. Obviously when we're free-camping that changes, but mostly the tank is left empty. If I can't get the weight issue sorted out by other means, I can fill the tank and use it as "ballast".
cheers, Al.
|
|
|
Post by bobt on Aug 12, 2012 18:24:05 GMT 10
Gidday Al Thanks for that link, yep I know of Tom Olthoff, then there was Tom Harding and Eric Hayman. Combined they hold an amazing wealth of knowledge regarding the towing and construction of caravans and all things associated. Fortunately writing for a magazine does not qualify you as an expert. Read some of technical tips in later years and you would shudder. I believe Tom Harding still runs the odd tag alone tour, lectures and the like. Rather curious as to why SA did a full Coroners Inquiry usually it is done if it is likely the 'offending person' is still alive or there is some preventable mechanical fault. Still it does not help you out of your dilemma My Hat is off to you for your depth of research into caravans and the like. My Windsor did not have a rear bumper, it was never a problem except when I was washing it. Love the carpet. Bobt
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 12, 2012 19:26:53 GMT 10
I did a little project for the Windsor today. I had a rickety old aluminium stepladder in the shed. Bought it about 30 years ago when I first started trying to be a handyman. Over the years, I became more and more unsettled when trying to climb it, because it rocked from side to side due to a lack of stabilising struts on the top half. I ended up buying other more robust ladders, and pensioned this one off and shoved it down the back of the shed. I recently thought about having a small ladder for the Windsor, in case any running repairs were required during our travels. I thought about that old ladder, and the more I thought about it, the more I realised I could do something with it. Out came all the necessary tools, and one old 6ft ladder was cut down to a 3ft 3" ladder. Here's the ladder as it was originally... ...and here's the finished smaller ladder... I used all the struts from the original ladder to strengthen up the smaller version, and make it a lot more stable. I also used up some of the rivets that were left over from the Millard window refurbishment job, so it was a cheap way to do the project. The small ladder is 3ft 3ins because it has to fit cross-ways under the island bed. It weighs only 3kgs, so it won't have much impact on the weight distribution. Just another way to spend a lazy Sunday... cheers, Al.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2012 17:46:38 GMT 10
Hello Al, Great job on the ladder - just be careful as you step down backwards, that the last step is only about half the height of the rest of the steps, which can be a little disconcerting until you get used to it.
Chris
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 13, 2012 23:13:34 GMT 10
Yeah Chris, I understand what you are saying. Funnily enough, with my age and dicky knees these days, that first step is really one of the best I've seen in a ladder, heh heh. I tend to climb a ladder nowadays by putting one foot up on a step, and then bringing the other foot onto that same step, and then repeating the process for the other steps. Same on the way down. None of this running up and down a ladder anymore. Those days are looooong gone. I gave the smaller ladder a test run after I built it, and that short step didn't seem to be an issue. But I do take your point, and I'll be encouraging the Boss to give it a thorough testing to see if there are any problems with the design (...no point in me doing the testing...who's gonna fix it if the design is wrong and I'm layed up in hospital?! ) [And just as an aside...I set a mousetrap the other day, and then asked her if she'd put her finger on the 'bait' and see if it was working properly. She burst out laughing, saying "You dag! As if..." ] cheers, Al.
|
|
|
Post by bobt on Aug 20, 2012 18:29:59 GMT 10
Hey Al
Once upon a time (last year) I would have said. What the H*&% do you want a ladder for.
Now I have one too. Just not tall enough to fit the anti flaps things with out one.
I am jealous about the 3 kgs.
bobt
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Aug 21, 2012 15:17:54 GMT 10
G'day All, The "new" towcar arrived in our front yard last Friday... I did a deal with my brother to buy his 2004 Prado GXL, 5sp auto, 4L petrol, 110,000 kms on the clock. He'd added a number of bells and whistles over the last year to kit it out for towing his 25ft Jayco. I've inherited all those, which include... - factory mesh screen for the front to stop the flying insects - heavy duty battery - Prodigy controller for the electric brakes - 2-channel monitor and reversing camera for the car (he's kept the camera he fitted to his van, so I'm in the process of buying another one for the Windsor) - reversing sensors - wiring for charging the van battery (I don't have one in the Windsor, but I now have that option) - wiring for running the fridge on 12V while touring (again, I don't have the 12V option on the van fridge, but I'm thinking of getting another 3-way fridge I've got in the shed reconditioned and put in the van) - wiring to a cigar outlet in the car rear storage for a Waeco-type fridge All of which has saved me a heck of a lot of time and effort to have fitted. The only thing I had to do on the Windsor was change the plug to a 12-pin plug for all the extra wiring. After all the recent calculations on ball-weight and weight distribution in the van, today was a "tow and test" day to see what the new towcar performed like, and to suss out the behaviour of the van at speed. I'm pleased to announce that everything went perfectly! ;D ;D The test run involved a 3.5km steep mountain pass just north of home; 30kms of freeway at speeds up to 100kph; and 10kms of the old winding highway. There was no hint of the rear of the van "surging" right and left like it did on our weekend trip last month. The Prado got the van up the mountain pass quite easily, whereas the Mazda struggled on the last trip. I took a photo at the end of the test run... I'm a very happy chappy, and looking forward to getting out for a decent trip with the van. ;D ;D cheers, Al.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 16:45:22 GMT 10
On ya Al!
|
|
|
Post by kiwijim on Aug 21, 2012 19:08:38 GMT 10
Very nice Al, I did notice, last weeks winning Lotto went to the Eastern States. ;D ;D ;D Now, when can we see that nice combination heading towards the Wild Flower West ? ? ? ? kiwijim
|
|
|
Post by bobt on Aug 21, 2012 20:59:23 GMT 10
I thought I could hear someone smiling now I know I did. Looks good. Sounds very pleasing bobt
|
|
|
Post by bobandjacqui on Aug 22, 2012 5:48:47 GMT 10
G'day Al, The new rig looks the goods The Prado should be much kinder on your back Cheers Bob and Jacqui
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Sept 3, 2012 9:01:07 GMT 10
G'day All, I finally got the TV antenna job all sorted out. I ended up buying a Digimatch L4052 antenna from Dick Smith about a month or so ago, when it was on a half-price special ($64.50, down from $129 )... These antennas come in two halves, which are joined together. I ended up just using the front UHF half, but I can use the back half if I'm ever desperate to watch TV before the analogue system is completely shut down. I collected bits and pieces over the last month to enable me to fit the antenna onto the van. The bottom bracket is from those galvanised gate products that are available... The top bracket is a quick-release nylon bracket, used in the marine industry for attaching aerials to boats (and thanks to gav for his tip about what to search for )... The support pole is a 25mm aluminium mop handle, with a 22mm timber broom handle pushed inside it to give it more strength in strong winds. A couple of other brackets were made out of aluminium, and this is the final result... It works really well in our front yard, but the real test will be when we are way out in the sticks one day. cheers, Al.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2012 17:13:04 GMT 10
Well done Al, you're not just a pretty face. I don't think you will have any problems at all. Chris
|
|
|
Post by millard1399 on Sept 4, 2012 18:45:22 GMT 10
Ahhh, another day - another job done My brother came over today and made up a bracket for the spare wheel, and welded it onto the front drawbar. That shifts a heap of weight that was previously on a rear bumper bar, and transfers it to the front of the van... Looks like I'll be on the end of a paintbrush for the next few days. cheers, Al.
|
|