Four Seasons hatch - reseal, getting up there

[keelz]

gday all, neat to pick all your brains.

As mentioned in other threads i'm currently progressively re-sealing roof seams, trims, etc on my van roof. Up to the hatches next.....when good weather prevails one weekend soon touch wood.

I have a sloping front yard, difficult to use ladders on against the van to reach hatches. I don't have access to a carport roof to park the van under to access the van roof from above either..... apart from trying to find some scaffold planks to run between two sturdy ladders and do the tight rope across the roof of the van......er um .....jeez this is just getting too hard. I'm not an expert at balancing on planks with a hatch in one hand and a caulking gun in the other....

Then ol' brain came out of the woodwork and suggested ...."hey why don't you just pop the 8 rivets on the corner stakes internally, disconnect the winder mechanisms and flyscreens and lift the lid and flaps off from inside the van".

Got this pic off ebay, typical inside shot of a four seasons hatch. You'll see what i mean...Al you've hooked me on photos with red arrows! ;D



After top lid and flaps removed, Keelz stands on stepladder inside van, pops head up through hole like Pop-eye the sailor and commences tedious work removing dodgy old roof and gutter silicons, dodgy quick fix treatments and the like applied over the last 30 years to remove the existing hatch base.

Remove rivets, take off hatch frame, remove all old mastics, putties, silicons and the like, clean and R&R back in the workshop, re-caulk all the corner stake mitres with new sealant, re-seal the rivet holes etc.

Clean van roof surface back and remove all crud.

Re-bed hatch frame/bases on a nice new bed of sealant, re-fix to van roof and then re-assemble the lid back onto the four corner stakes with a few daubs of sealant and 8 new rivets in the reverse order originally dismantled....

All done by working from inside the van on stool/ladder so i can really get stuck into the surface preparation with some power tools, without falling off a plank, without falling off a ladder, without taking my van to a workshop where someone wants to charge more than the vet or my dentist combined and wants to sell me new hatches at the same time.....

Now....this is where you guys come in.... Is this achievable or have i completely lost the plot?!?

Cheers

Keelz

[kiwijim]

G'Day Keelz,

Well done on the 4 Seasons repair work,

I don't know about loosing the plot.........I think under your circumstances that's a good way of effecting a repair job with-out putting your neck on the line. ;D ;D

I suppose you checked the corner plastic fittings on the flaps for deterioration while having them off,
I have found that they look o.k. at a quick glance but become very brittle after a number of years and can collapse very easily, ;D

"AH" the joys of repairing those flamin roof hatches,
In my job, I have the endless task of refitting the flaps that have blown out and are hanging loose on the roof after the person hiring the van could not be bothered to close them while traveling,

this refit usually means the replacement of the winder as well, that is another item that can shatter with-out warning,
being plastic, the base at the rivet positions are a popular departure point...mumble....mumble. ;D

I see in the photo of your van, it has the pebble ceiling,
what do you think of the job of cleaning that type of material ?
only did it once......never again......that's one for our cleaning Girls.

keep up the retro Keelz,
it's looking better every time I see a posting.

liwijim

[Deleted]

"I like it", he says studying the real thing with a morning coffee in hand.

Another very simple tip n trick.

Necessity IS the mother of invention.

[millard1399]

Yep, I think it's a very smart idea to work from the inside! AND I think it's a very smart idea to pull the hatch apart and clean it up and reseal all the bits and pieces. As I work my way through my Millard, getting to know every nook and cranny, it becomes plainly obvious that all the external fixtures and fittings are a source of possible water leaks. I'll be posting an example in my Millard thread soon, when I get the photos sorted out, but in the meantime I would encourage all restorers to take the time and make SURE your van ends up absolutely water tight.
Keelz, you get full marks for working out the safest way of doing the job, and you get BONUS marks for your determination to do the best possible job!

Good onya!! ;D ;D ;D

cheers,
Al.

[keelz]

Thanks for the feedback gents. I had been thinking for a long time there has to be an easier way than standing on a plank or ladder and breaking my neck

Kiwi - you're right mate - for 35+? years or so they have kept manufacturing these hatches with inherent faults in their design - they are literally built to leak from day 1! You've got it, the first thing i'll do is re-seal all the plastic and mitred corners and rivet holes before i re-attach to the van. I'll have to be as gentle as possible to avoid breakages, although....as you know.....s(#& happens sometimes when you're wrestling to get the bloody things off! ;D

eg have a look at this sample photo from ebay again (not my actual hatch, some bloke selling it on ebay) - so many potential water entry points at the corners....



Kiwijim - as a man who sounds like he's spent some time with these lovely devices - question for you if you don't mind. The plastic clip that holds the metal spring from the winder mechanism. Will the plastic clip that attaches to the flap break when i disconnect the flap from the winder mechanism? I think they are a replacement clip in part i was just wondering if they are re-usable or should i order some replacements in to have on hand before i start the job?? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

ps don't have a pebble ceiling - that's just a photo i acquired off ebay. Carpet on the ceiling - that would be a definately a 70's retro thing! ;D Although.....the front section of roof aluminium near the hatch up top has that annoying rippled finish - a right royal pain in the bum to clean all the old mastic and silicon out of Oh well... It must be done.

I guess the other thing i need to be careful of is when i re-bed the base angles/frames i need to check/make sure the thing stays square and reasonably level otherwise i could have some difficulty getting the lid to line back up when i finish with the four plastic corner stakes ?? The more i think about that it concerns me eeek

keelz

[kiwijim]

"OH BOY" those lovely plastic fittings.......... #*##@***%^#

to answer your question Keelz,
in a word ...yes the plastic center support which holds the spring wire from the winder can be split in half to release the wire,
that is if you are very lucky,
If you examine the support, you will see it is a two piece item, half will go through the flap inner plate and is the center support and spacer for the inner and outer sider of the flap, this also has a plastic finger attached which holds the eye of the winder wire,
the other half of the center support only goes to the inner side of the flap,
the support is a two piece item, snapped together and held by to very thin plastic fingers, this inner half is the side to work on ,

I have managed to separate the support in the past with a lot of Patience and even more good luck by using a couple of small screw drivers at each end to give only light pressure on the joint, then using a center-punch tap the two plastic fingers at their protrusion end, with luck the support will spring apart.

unfortunately the possibility of breaking the center support is so great that at work we don't even try to separate them any longer, it is far cheaper and quicker for us to drill out the two rivets holding the winder to the frame and throw the complete flap over the shoulder, replacing the complete flap which we buy with winder attached.

my advise would be if the winder and flap are still in good condition....just smile at them and put them back.

if you do have to work on the separation of the support I would contact your supplier to make sure they have the new parts available then if so ....have a go, and good luck.

kiwijim

[keelz]

Thanks Kiwijim you are a fountain of knowledge!

i shall have a go and make the appropriate preparations for impending plastic breakage and disaster! ;D

Really appreciate the advice

thanks again

Keelz

[Deleted]

Keelz,
I wish I had seen this thread earlier - I also have started on the "seals" maintenance of the Quest from the top down. I did the reseal of the 4 season hatch last weekend.

I did manage to do the work kneeling on a plank on the roof. The Quest is also on a slopping driveway so I had to build a level base on the ground for the ladder - front and back of the hatch so I could move the ladder to both locations. After the first time the ladder blew away , I ended up tying it down to the awning hooks with an ocky strap . Thankfully did not break my neck but levelling the ladder and tying it to the van made it very steady and easy to get up and down from the roof.

The 4 season hatch was glued in with body filler of all things. No wonder it had a leak . It took me hours to scrape and chip off the filler and what made it worse (or better depending on your point of view) was half the filler had hardner and the half didnt so some of it was still runny and very sticky after all these years .
Working on cleaning up the 4 season hatch hole from inside the van made that job easier. So your method of removing the top of the hatch first would have been a good move. One thing I would be worried about would be the hatch could go all floppy and damage easily without the support of the top section.

Anyway, it was dead easy to put back in and seal once everything was cleaned up and I had worried a lot about it for nothing.

Did you get any water damage on the frame beneath the hatch?

PS. There is an article in a previous caravanworld about installing a 4 season hatch (Issue - CM 61 - June 2004 - Project Vicki, Part 22-Fitting a 4 seasons hatch). I planned to look for the article before I did the work but did not get around to it.

Ian

[keelz]

Hey Ian, yep isn't it a fun job?

Well i got the first front hatch off last weekend but then the wet weather has returned. On go the tarp and van cover, sittin' around playing the waiting game until the sunny stuff returns. I now often work on the van at night, come home from work, turn the floodlights on and start attacking the van. Neighbours must think i've lost plot ......

I can only imagine what they're saying "Good gracious dear he's using a drill at 8:30pm!" ;D

I utilised the method of removal and access i discussed above. I removed the rivets holding the lid onto the four corners. To disconnect the wind-out flaps, the easiest solution was to drill out the two pop rivets connecting the winder mechanism to the base frame. Voila! lifts off. Get step stool, then i worked on removing the rivets that held the base down and removing all the rubbish. It lifted off after a bit of persuasion, actually way to easily off the old putty stuff. Looked original from when van originally built.

Now the first hatch i've pulled off really is indicating it's 30+ years of service. It's still in remarkable condition for it's age, but for the sake of the cost of two new hatches, i've bitten the bullet and am going to replace both. I have stripped it down to individual pieces in the workshop but the re-build is going to be something i do when i have some spare time (LOL) and i'll keep them as spares or sell. Murphy's law tells me that if i stuck the old ones back down the first trip away a winder mechanism would jam up or something rather similar!

Two new hatches arrived from Caravans plus today in the mail.

Yep, i had the same butyl mastic putty that was leaking on my hatches, plus a combination of some roof and gutter silicons from previous owners plus some stop leak stuff that i had painted on when i first bought the van as a temporary band-aid solution.

I find the quickest way of removing all that garbage is do a very general scrape with the hand tools (don't spend hours on it though). After the bulk is removed i use a 4 inch grinder with a fibreglass strip it disc, not too abrasive. It removes all the gunk, paint, silicons, mastics, etc back to a smooth shiny aluminium surface, ready for a nice new bed of sealant. Hopefully when this weather dries up i can get back into it and install first new hatch, then start removing the 2nd.

I didn't have much damage, just some staining around the hatches from when the previous owners had it.

The main problems i see with all these old putties/mastics used by the manufacturers is that they harden when exposed to the air, dry out, crack, break the seal against the roof of the van or the hatch. It only takes one tiny crack to wick that water in if you've got a slight bit of ponding beside the hatch during the rain.

oh and yeh those smart fellas at Viscount just happened to decide to have one of the roof sheet seams occur right where the hatches are!. So then you have another weak point where if the seams aren't sealed correctly, or the perimeter roof trims, it tracks along the interlock seam and ends up at the hatch penetration!

Happy hatching,

Keelz

[Deleted]

Hi Keellz,

Here's a couple of pics of the hatch in my 1978 York. Notice the rather deep roof cavity and method of trim etc.

[tassietiger]

Hey guys interesting thread. I am seriously thinking about putting a 4SH in the Tiger Hunter but having read this thread I am wondering if it is going to be worth it. It would seem they have some inbuilt faults or have I miss read things? I also read in another thread that they tend to let a lot of heat in throught the top panel? Currently looking at a couple of second hand ones on ebay. Your advice would be welcomed.

[tassietiger]

Re those second hand hatches I mentioned on ebay here is a picture of one of them.



Note the three white blotches on the corner moulding. When I asked the seller what they were I was informed they are silicone covering the rivets that hold the grey plastic moulding on Does this mean that these hatches a prone to leaking on the corners

The hatch is being sold because it was replaced through insurance as a result of hail damage to the top.

[Samuel]

I never had a problem fixing the leak in 4 season hatches. I just got a ladder and a plank and two pieces of wood.
I would put the two pieces of wood one each side on the edges and then put the plank across and then just undo the hatch screws lift the hatch off take the old mastic off, clean with acetone both on the van and the hatch and put on the new mastic and then rescrew the hatch down and get a painters blade and scrape off the excess and all done in under an hour

[james duncan]

Read all your comments and went out full of confidence only to run up an a currly one. Removed all old gunk down to the screw, applied screw driver and they, after a careful inspection were stripped in the head crosses. Therefore out of the first 8 screws I tried to remove, only 2 came out. Am now at a point where I am seriously thinking of a total clean all around 4SH and putting a fix of layered mastic on hatch and roof seam around hatch. I tried to remove screws with usual methods but to no avail. sometimes it is not as easy as one would think