1974 Franklin Hunter - V3356

[tassietiger]

Thanks kezzbot.

The tank sits toward the front of the van just behind the table mount and in front of the axle.

[atouchofglass]

Nice job TT


Hopefully the tank won't add too much to the ball weight when full

Was it custom made or off the shelf?

Thanks for the photos

Cheers
Atog

[tassietiger]

Morning atog

The actual water tank is a stock standard off the shelf black plastic job. What you can see in the photo is the metal shield I made for it out of a piece of sheet metal walling from an old above ground swimming pool which is very light weight.

The tank is in exactly the same position and the same capacity 70litres, as the old one was so the ball weight should not change. However, thanks for reminding me re the BW I will add it to my to do list to check this weekend using the "millard 1399 methodology." Raining(hoobloodyray) and snowing here at the moment so at least I will have some water to put in it ;D

Cheers

[tassietiger]

Right, well, I have filled the new water tank and used the millard1399 method to get the ball weight.

Jacked up the aframe and the jockey wheel, placed the bathroom scales under the jw and slower lowered the the jack and............. the ball weight is 103kg which if you work on bw being 10% of gvm that means the Hunter, loaded for travel which it currently is, weighs 1030kgs

This is all very interesting because on the NSW rego papers I was given by the previous owner the TARE weight is shown as 620kgs which means in theory I have put 410kgs into the van That's a lot of baked beans

Needless to say that I certainly have not added that much weight in fact I have reduced the weight by taking out the double bed and putting in a single.

My hayman reese tow bar is rated to 1000kg towing capacity with a ball weight of 82kgs. My tug (Hiace van) has a towing capacity for a breaked trailer of 1400kgs so I am well within that limit. My concern is with the tow bar. So......I think a trip to the public weight bridge is in order to get an exact gvm

Weight and watch this space.........

[ronaldjohn]

Hi tassietiger,

The ball weight on my Getaway is something like 185kg!!
However the tare weight of the van is only 1010kg

What happened is I fitted another water tank forward of the axle, so when it is carrying 2 tank fulls, 120l of water, the ball weight increases and so does the stability.

I cannot tow it with the Falcon any more as it has a standard tow bar, but I do tow it with a Land Rover Discovery and have towed it with the Jaguar



I made a Hayman Reese type hitch for it, based on a Toyota Prado one. ;D

Cheers,
Ron

BTW In QLD, it is legal to make your own tow bar for any vehicle older than 1988

[bobt]

Hi Tassietiger.

way over here in 'mexico' our towing rules are such that you can not exceed the weight of the item with the lowest capacity, in your case it would be the tow bar. 1000kgs. best you take the spare socks and jocks out.. ;D ;D

Running it over a weigh bridge sounds like a good idea. by the way...the 10% on the tow ball is dependant on how you have the van loaded

[tassietiger]

Update May 31

Chassis
The chassis renovation is finally finished. Removed the wheels and cleaned and de rusted the remaining components primed and top coated. Looks spiffo ;D

Weight Issues
I took the Hiace to the weigh bridge last Tuesday. Result - it weighs 2.040 tonnes. Went back on Wednesday with the Hunter hooked on and loaded for a 5 day trip. Result - total weight 3.060 tonnes. Therefore the Hunter has a GVM of 1.020 tonnes. You may remember from my previous post that I caculated the ball weight at 103kgs. Taking 10% of 1.020 tonnes = 102kgs so I was pretty close. So much for the 620kgs shown on the NSW rego papers

Having sorted all that out and given that my current 1000kg rated towbar is starting to suffer (see below) I think beefing it up and getting a bw rating of around 120kgs is now on the top of my to do list.



The other interesting thing in all this weight issue is the way the total weight of the Hunter is distributed. Around 2/3 of it is in front of the axle. See pic.



The two heaviest items, fridge and full water tank, are in the front of the axle. A couple of caravaning mates have suggested I move the water tank aft of the axle. Any thoughts?

[millard1399]

G'day t/t,

Before you worry about shifting water tanks, let's have a look at the specifications for your van...

You say the nominal mass is 620kgs on the rego papers, but that the actual is 1020kgs when fully loaded.

Firstly, is the axle size on the van rated to carry 1020kgs?

kylarama gave the axle limits for various axle sizes...

39mm round axles are rated to 750kg
40mm square axles are rated to 1000kg
45mm square axles are rated to 1450kg

Secondly, when you load the van up, and then hook it up to the tow vehicle, does the rig sit level from back of caravan to front of towcar?

If you can answer YES to both questions above, I don't think you have any concerns about weight distribution. My biggest concern is the "light duty" towbar you've got. I'd be investing in a heavy duty one that has the square tube that fits into the square socket (the setup is known as a "hitch receiver").

If you've measured the ball weight at 102kgs with the van fully loaded for a 5-day trip, then providing the van-car combination is sitting level over the full length, AND the axle is rated to carry your load, then you're pretty sweet.


Summary:

1. Check your van axle is rated to carry the total load you're talking about (1020kgs)
2. Invest in a heavy duty "hitch receiver" type towbar
3. Check the ball weight is approx 10% of the fully loaded weight of the van. (10 to 15% range is ok. Less than 10% can lead to instability issues.)
4. Check the van-towcar combo is level from front to rear when hitched up.

cheers,
Al.

[tassietiger]

Good morning AL,

thanks for the information.

I think the 620kgs nominal weight shown on the NSW rego papers is irrelevant now. There is no way I have loaded 400kgs into the van. I believe the nominal weight should be 950 - 980kgs ie. the TARE or kerb weight. I will check this by taking all the food, clothes and extras out, filling the water tank and gas bottle and taking it back to the weigh bridge.

As to the Hunter's axle, it is round and 60mm in diameter so I am not sure where that puts it on the scale.

As to levelness of the entire rig I am pretty sure it is not level over the entire length as the Hiace appears higher at the front but I will confirm this by measurement. I have a weight distribution hitch coming which should correct this.

Towbar - your right re the "light weight" although the compliance place states is maximum towing capacity at 1000kgs but a bw of 82kgs. Beefing this up or changing it is top of the to do list.

Cheers
Wayne

[tassietiger]

Morning again,

just Googled "caravan axles" and found this site which I thought might be of some use to others:

al-ko.epshosting.com/vehicle/axles/bare_sa.html

According to the table shown on this site my 60mm round axle (if it is a "tube") is rated at 1400kgs which is well within the limits of the Hunter and equals the towing capacity of the Hiace. I can only assume if it is a solid axle it would have a higher rating.

[bobt]

Hi Tassietiger

Back in the "good ol days" ;D ;D when manufactures had there vans weighed they were 'empty' no seat cushons no table and I suspect no fridge or stove.. the 620kgs is quite possible.

Seeing you are going to empty all your worldly possessions out of your caravan. Get the bathroom scales out and weigh each bit add it all up and lets know what you come up with.

In my mind a full tank of water, full gas bottle and everything else that seems to end up inside my caravan could easily tip the 400kg mark

bobt

[tassietiger]

G'day bobt

Just finished weighing everything that I have put in the Hunter. Total 62.5kgs which includes the annex but excludes the 70litres of water and the gas.

Given that the van loaded for a five day trip weighed in at 1020kgs and if I am generous and round the item weight up to 70kgs(single male with frugal needs) then nominal kerb weight of the Hunter is 950kgs. Take off 70kgs for water and say 10kgs for gas leaves 870kgs net unloaded kerb weight.

So, what does all that mean Good question Simply put, if I am going to tow her loaded up, and lets be really generous and say her fully loaded weight will be 1100kgs, then I definitely need to replace the tow bar Heading off to start that process tomorrow.

[Deleted]

The axle in the Hunter is pretty well the same as in the Caravelle, I did the calculations on mine and came up with 1300kg as its capacity. The LM Holden bearings are the limiting factor in the calculations but also take into consideration the carrying capacity of your tires. I'm using 8 ply light truck tires and they run at about 75% of their max capacity.
Re the tare weight of these vans, I weighed my Caravelle when it was just a bare shell and it tipped the scales at 730Kg. As I recall the registered Tare weight was used in calculating the rego cost in NSW so the lighter the better. You look like you are making good progress with your van and yes, the chassis is a pain to paint but it looks good finished.

Frankidownunder.

[bobt]

Hi Tassietiger

Now that explains it.... Single male = essentials add Female = accessories... = dare I say it... weight..

I think swmbo's hand bag weighs in at 10 kgs. sure feels like it when it connects with the side of my head ;D ;D ;D

bobt

[tassietiger]

G'day all

Long time no post on this thread. Well it has stopped raining, unfortunately so thought I would get out with the digi camera a take a few photos of the brand spanking new tow bar I had fitted this week. (Apologies for the mud etc but the rain has been good )

You may remember this photo from a previous post.....


.....well this is how things look now...





The tb was manufactured by a local company specialising in heavy duty bars. Peter Stacey the guy who owns the business was very helpful. He was able to re use the tongue from the old bar which he rated as hd and manufactured the new bar himself to fit the unusual chassis set up of the Hiace. He has made the bar to meet all necessay regulations and the maximum braked towing capacity of the Hiace of 1400kgs. The ball wait has also been increased to 140kgs capacity.

As described earlier in this thread the Hunter loaded weighs in at around 1100kgs so I am feeling somewhat reassured now that I have up graded the bar and while I will not reach the 1400kg capacity it is good to have a safety margin Peter showed me the bolts he removed from the old bar. One was broken and the other pretty near to being so

So, now spring is just around the corner the renovation plans are back on the top of the agenda. Next item is to get the 12v system in the Hunter up and running ready for a free camping trip up north at the end of September during which much thought will be given to what will take priority on the reno list.

More to follow..............(I hope!!!)

[tassietiger]

The next phase of the renovation is on the production line so to speak. I have acquired the necessary components to install a dual battery system in my tow vehicle and to put a battery in the Hunter ready for short trip at the end of this month.

The bits and pieces


One more bit to come which is a fused battery terminal which I am expecting in the post today. So over the next week or so I will see if can totally bamboozle myself with wiring and fuses etc etc etc Keep an ear out for the expletives

[bobt]

Hi ya Tassietiger

The new tow bar certainly looks better. Have you taken it for a test drive yet?

I gather you have some serious 12volt plans for your van. How is it progressing

bobt

[tassietiger]

Morning bobt

No haven't hooked the Hunter on yet but hooked a trailer on the other day and now the only issue is the tow ball might be too high. Might try and hook the Hunter up in the next week or so once the ground dries out a bit and see how she sits.

Re the 12v stuff. I am going to put a deep cycle 100amp hour battery in the Hunter and run cabling from the tow vehicle battery to keep it charged while driving and later on run the fridge whilst driving. That's what all the bits and pieces are for. The Hunter already has the necessary wiring for the lights and the fridge and the system has previously been operated through the tail light plug running off the tow vehicle battery. My vehicle is not wired to run through the trailer plug.

Besides, everything I have read tells me the standard wiring in vehicles is way too light for carrying the necessary current to keep the Hunter battery charged effectively. The cabling you can see in the photo is 6B&S 13mm square surface area (not sure what that means) but the gurus say it is the minimum size to use. A bit like water in a hose the bigger the hose diameter the more water you get at the other end.

Did a priliminary survey of a possible route from the tow vehicle battery to the back bumper on Saturday. I have a Hiace Commuter van so a fair distance to navigate and it looks simple enough but once again need to wait for some drier weather and ground otherwise I will be rolling around in the mud

Planning a 5 day trip away at the end of September and I am hoping to do some free camping so that's the reason for getting the 12v sorted out.

Cheers
TT

[tassietiger]

The 12volt Wiring

The Hunter, when built in 1974, was wired up for the interior lights and the fridge to receive their 12 volt from the battery of the tow vehicle. The standard 7 pin flat trailer plug on the Hunter has a cable attached to the auxillary pin. Obviously this means the tow vechile must have a 12 volt cable attached to the auxillary lug on the socket. My tow vehicle(Hiace Commuter) is not wired in that way. I decided not to wire the Hiace for this purpose as I did not want to find my starting battery flat and these types of batteries are not suitable for running things like laptops, digi TVs etc etc.

In the short term( 5 day trip planned for next week) I have placed an auxillary battery (of the starter type) in the Hunter under the front seats and have run a positive and earth wire from that battery to the corresponsding lugs on a new trailer socket attached to the Aframe. When I unplug the trailer plug from the Hiace it now gets put into this socket which gives me 12volt power for the lights and fridge. It also means the plug is up out of the dirt etc. See photo


(Credit to Murray for this idea)

I will be purchasing a deep cycle AGM 100amp hour battery to put permanently in the Hunter. In anticipation of that I have installed a dual battery charging system. The diagram below sets out the wiring schematic



I have run(approx 4 meters) a positive 6B&S cable from the starting battery in the Hiace through a fuse to the isolator and then to a 50amp Anderson plug mounted on the rear bumper. An earth wire is attached to the chassis just behind the bumper. See photos.







I will run a positive and earth cable attached to a second Anderson lug into the Hunter to be attached to the auxillary battery so I can keep it charged whilst driving.

As the interior renovations progress I will eventually connect the fridge directly to the auxillary power system so I can also run the fridge whilst driving plus install 12 volt sockets in strategic locations.

So, I didn't get tangled in knots but did end up with stiff kneck working under the Hiace.

[tassietiger]

Recently did a trip up north visiting Oatlands, Campbell Town, Longford, Evandale, St Marys, Bicheno and Swansea. The new tow bar set up went well although once the Hunter is connected I can't open the rear door on the Hiace. So looks like a trip back to the towbar guy for some adjustments.

I took this photo at our first free camp site. Note the distinct sag in the roof. I am assuming it was not built like this but has circumbed to gravity over the last 36 years (I know how it feels ;D ;D ).



As I will be replacing the hatch in the not too distant future do you think it worthwhile to try and get some convex shape back in the roof so that water does not gravitate toward the hatch opening which is where the roof leaks? I was thinking of doing this by replacing any existing roof frame members with 19mm marine ply cut a bit like boat deck beams. Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcomed.

Cheers
TT

[millard1399]

G'day TT,

Nothing like getting out on the road to give you a better idea of what works and what doesn't eh?! Rear doors that don't have enough clearance, etc. etc.

As far as the roof goes, yep you'll need to most likely replace the timber framework. On two vans I've worked on so far, the big problem I've found with the framework around the hatch is that there's not enough of it. The manufacturers have put the least amount of timber in there, so that when the hatch leaks and the timber frame starts to rot away, there's no strength left to support the roof.

I posted the following photo on the Vintage forum the other day, to show someone how sloppy manufacturers can be in building vans. After I'd stripped all the layers of old sealant away from the hatch perimeter, I discovered why this hatch had a tendency to leak. (ignore the red arrows, I was just pointing out something to the other person.) You can see in the photo how the aluminium cladding has been cut badly to make the hatch opening...




You will most likely find the timber in your ceiling cavity is shot to bits. Probably cracked in a couple of places, which is why the roof has sagged. My thinking is that the framework in these hatch areas needs to be built so there's an additional cross-member at the front and rear of the hatch frame. In the following diagram, you will most likely find your framework looks like the black lines in the first sketch. My idea is to replace that framework with new timber, but add another crossmember either side (the red lines in the sketch). You build the black framework first and then screw the red pieces to it...



You could try to cut the cross-members tapered. Depends what the frame is like already. I'd copy what's already there. I've got one van with tapered cross-members, and one with straight rectangle timber (as you buy it). I think the additional strengthening timber either side is more important than the shape of the timber (just my thoughts). I'm using the standard 42mm x 19mm pine timber that you get at the local hardware store. That's what's been used in both the vans I've got.

cheers,
Al.

[kiwijim]

Howdy Tassietiger,

I agree with Al, the sooner you get that roof repaired the better,

It's a pity the Manufacturer didn't put a little more thought into the production of the roof sections of many vans made back in the 70's.

I think it was a case of the cheapest and most cost effective way of producing a large number of vans in the shortest period of time that was their biggest concern.

As Al has said, the best way to repair your roof is to remove all cladding and expose all timber,
then you can see how far the damage from water has gone,

I would be inclined to use Mirranti timber as a replacement frame, this timber is used extensively in the trade because of it's lightness and strength,
It is also far less porous than pine, there-for less likely to adsorb moisture.

It's not a small job repairing a roof, and definitely not one to do out-side, You had better order a good size shed before you start, that is if you don't already have one.

Best of luck. kiwijim

[tassietiger]

Thanks Al and Jim. Yep will be a big job. I'm bidding on ebay on a 4 season hatch at the moment so hopefully installing that will be part of the mix. Your definitely right about the extra roof members Al. My reasoning on using ply was that it will not sag overtime as timber would.

As to a large shed, got one but the doorways aren't high enough to accommodate a van so it is going to be tarps and lots of fine weather (pouring with rain at the mo )

Working on some floor plans at the moment as well so will post those soon for comment.

Thanks again.

Wayne

PS: Al how do you put those arrows and lines etc on your photos and what format do you save them in for posting?

[Deleted]

My roof had a slight sag in it but when I built the bathroom walls I made them the same height as the side walls, that lifted the roof back into its proper position and also strengthened the vans structure. On the Franklin Caravelle's the roof consists of sheets of plywood running from sidewall to sidewall with no framing what so ever, the manufacturer relied on the curve of the roof to gain strength and braced the walls to the roof with the overhead cupboards and wardrobe. When I removed some of these I had to regain that lost bracing effect so used the bathroom walls to do this. A lot of these older vans are built this way, using curved plywood panels to give shape and strength, care must be taken when these panels are replaced to ensure integrity of the whole structure by securing the panels to the sidewall as per the original manufacturing methods.
Maybe summer will give you some dry weather to do your repairs, in the meantime keep planning them and getting the bits you want

Cheers,
Denis.

[tassietiger]

G'day Denis good to hear from you again.

How is it all going at your end?

Interesting comment you make about the wardrobe and overhead cupboards giving the roof support. In the Hunter neither the wardrobe or the side overhead cupboards over the sink and stove go all the way to the roof. Only the overheads across either end go to the roof. I suspect that this may be part of the problem. In my planned renovations I intend to replace these cupboards with units that do go all the way to the roof which I am hoping will add extra support.

A mate and I have been discussing the bracing merit of all the cupboards in vans. For instance do the overhead cupboards across either end provide lateral bracing? In my mates van there are only overheads at one end so my view is that cupboards provide little if any lateral bracing. What do others think?