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Post by Mustang on Sept 20, 2015 8:50:15 GMT 10
There have been a few threads here about members upgrading suspension for piece of mind. But none I have seen for official upgrades.
Is there a system of axel size, number of leaves in springs etc, that relates to an approximate ATM rating? (What you need to do to upgrade)
We are upgrading our modern ATM by 150kg, its costing us $300 to have an engineer to OK it!!!
While he is here I will get him to view Vincent (hopefully at a discounted rate) because our ATM on the rego is 1250kg, (17'6") when I had it weighed virtually stripped out it tipped in at 900KG, so by now I guess I,m over 1250 without trying, this must leave me vulnerable in an accident, even without insurance?
I will report our findings.
EDIT:
My springs are 7 x leaf & the square axel is 42mm round at the stubs.
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Post by supreme78 on Sept 20, 2015 10:29:05 GMT 10
My viscount tips the scales at 1650 on a single axle. That's way over the axles and springs built capacity of 1400kg. I upgraded my springs to 2000kg and will put a 2ton axle in at some stage. That's 50mm axle with 12" brakes and 6 stud hubs. It has bigger bearings also. I am traveling full time and need the extra capacity.
I registered my van and vic roads just said it was 2000 gvm as I had a weigh bridge ticked loaded of 1800kg
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 11:55:34 GMT 10
Hi Mustang Mate I have moved and given this it's own thread as I think it is something many members struggle with  I think our main problem with older caravans is we need to weigh them before we do anything to them. I am kicking myself for not just getting my Millard back to it's standard setup and then taking it to a weighbridge for it's tare. Then you really know what it's tare is from the when it was built or close enough too. Now my van had a hollow axle that had been snapped and been welded at some point in time and I believe this had happened from having to much weight loaded into and onto the caravan, when the guy's at the trailer spare parts place saw the axle - they straight away said you cannot get your van rego'd with that. They were more shocked when I showed them a safety certificate that was issue 3 months earlier when I bought it reg'd. The trailer parts place could look at my springs /axle etc and tell me what there weight capacity was.  After I repaired/recycle my Millard I went and got the Tare which is just under 700Kgs (698). The rego papers say it should be 530kgs, now that is totally impossible ! and the ATM is 750kgs...but that safety certificate lists the tare as 750kgs and ATM as 1020kgs. so I have no idea but like you will get an engineer to go over our Millard and and get the correct weights for it. Cheers |
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Post by supreme78 on Sept 20, 2015 20:55:45 GMT 10
I think any decent trailer or caravan shop can tell you the capacity of your springs and axle. It's like rims and tyres. 185x14 lt tyres are 850kg each so x2 = 1700kg. A car tyre at 550x2 is 1100kg not much really. An engineer is not much use unless you want to give away money for a bit of paper that's worth about as much as the paper it's printed on.
Holden bearings max load 1400kg
Ford bearings max load 1500 kg
It also depends on rim stud pattern and wheel stud size.
parallel bearings on 50mm axle are 1600kg. With 10" brakes.
I had a hollow axle on my viscount and it snapped off and almost destroyed my van. So please get rid of the hollow axle.
Nsw rules are no more hollow axles allowed.
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Post by snoops on Sept 21, 2015 6:17:06 GMT 10
In Vic, there is no engineering required on trailers. The regs just say it has to,be built 'fit for purpose'. When I rebuilt the suspension on mine, I used a new axle rated at 1,400kg and got an updated ATM of 1,300 on my rego papers without issue (up from 1,050 from the factory. It weighed 1,150 I think when I registered it almost ready to travel, but have added a second battery and a few other things so I might be close now - I need to weigh it again when I next head off, so I know for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2015 11:03:42 GMT 10
Hey Mustang, could you please advise me/us everything involved in doing this upgrade starting with 1/ It is a registered camper trailer with an tare....ATM and we need/want to increase/decrease etc etc etc etc As I am thinking of doing the exact same thing with our caravan has the tare listed by Qld transport is 530kgs but when we weighed it well it came in at 700kgs, this only give us 50kgs of extra load atm = 750kgs ?? Thanks mate |
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Post by Mustang on Sept 21, 2015 16:10:04 GMT 10
Hey Mustang, could you please advise me/us everything involved in doing this upgrade starting with 1/ It is a registered camper trailer with an tare....ATM and we need/want to increase/decrease etc etc etc etc As I am thinking of doing the exact same thing with our caravan has the tare listed by Qld transport is 530kgs but when we weighed it well it came in at 700kgs, this only give us 50kgs of extra load atm = 750kgs ?? Thanks mate This is what the transport police are looking at, recently they targeted grey nomads at Jondoryan, Milmerran & Goondiwindi. with heaps put off the road. I,m enquiring to what happens next, but apparently you are told to organise a flattray? How you get back on the road I don't know? Our engineer is coming Thursday to look at both vans, so I will report in earnest when I get the right info , at least that suits Qld requirements. PS: Those old weights must have been a bit conservative at best?  |
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Post by bobt on Sept 22, 2015 0:54:30 GMT 10
We drove through Goondiwindi this trip, so did a number of our grey nomad friends. Didn't hear on the grape vine that they were propping people. I have heard of people being weighed then told to go get a tow car that is legally able to tow their caravan. I can only assume that the van they are towing exceeds the towing capacity of the car. Certainly a number of the ones we have seen around the parks in our travels would have you scratching your head as to how legal they are.
We had an issue with our modern when we went to pick it up, the tare weight of the van exceeded my cars towing capacity. Sent the dealer into a flap (I was still holding the cheque. They ran it over a weigh bridge and produced a new compliance plate. They did discovered it had the wrong compliance plate fitted by the manufacture!!! I did score, as the tare weight of the van included 2 full water tanks. The van has a 400kg load capacity an ATM of 2405kg, the axles are rated at 2900kg. On a Modern van to spend $300 to get an engineer to allow you to increase your load capacity by 150kg, in my books 'Mustang' that is a good spend.
One of the good things about owning a classic is it does not have a compliance plate. Sit it on the right under carriage and you should have a reasonable carry capacity..
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Post by Mustang on Sept 23, 2015 17:36:16 GMT 10
One of the good things about owning a classic is it does not have a compliance plate. Sit it on the right under carriage and you should have a reasonable carry capacity.. Hi Bob, Am I jumping to conclusions, should I take advantage of no compliance plate? Eg: If the sherrif pulls me over & says we are going to weigh you van, do I have to produce rego papers? or just play ingnorant & say its a classic I dont have to have a compliance plate? I have no idea of the weight? |
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Post by snoops on Sept 23, 2015 19:53:30 GMT 10
Interesting thought... Although my van will show an ATM of 1300kg at VicRoads, that number is not recorded anywhere else. No data plate, nothing. My only thought would be that if someone got a bee in their bonnet then they may put the burden of proof back on you about what it should weigh.
I would probably take my rego papers with me if I travelled into NSW or QLD as they seem to be the ones making all the fuss about this at the moment, although I'm sure it will spread to other states.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 8:20:20 GMT 10
OK
In the eye's of the law - Ignorance is no excuse ! If it was the case that because something is not written down/stamped onto a vehicle then I could get away with not wearing a seat belt while driving but we all know you have to wear a seat belt. I think what Bob may have be trying to point out is if you had a classic van that is not rego'd and it had no compliance plate fitted, you could while repairing/restoring beef up the chassis and suspension and wheels and axles and then get it rego'd with a bigger tare and atm then what the original manufacturer may have once stated. But once it has a compliance plate then things get a lot harder and experts/engineers get involved with opinions and conditions etc.
Which is where I am at, I have a better axle on my van but will need to put new springs on - from 3 leaf to 4 (not a lot of $$ to do) and I would have to go to different tyres as well but if they say the chassis is limited to "XYZ" weigh then it's all over red rover, because it already has rego paperwork stating the tare is 530kgs which I would love to move up to 700kgs and get the atm to 900kgs and if they say sorry 600kgs is all that chassis can take, is it worth the $300-600 in extra parts and experts paperwork for 70kgs ?? ie a bit over a full tank of water.
Cheers
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Post by Mustang on Sept 25, 2015 8:19:22 GMT 10
Further to our experience:
Modern 1 (Ultimate):
Ben the engineer called & was Ok with upping our ATM from 2000 to 2150, fitted up a mod plate.
Because the chassis is buried in a monocoque construction he wouldn't confirm any higher, although we have just upgraded the suspension, by a recall.
Modern 2 (Jayco):
My daughters caravan is in our yard waiting their trip around Aus. She says while Ben is here see if we can get another 150KG. He measured up suspension, chassis etc & says he was OK to up it another 150, just check the warranty details first.
Classic (Vincent):
Measured all aspects of the frame, drawbar, coupling, spring size, leaf count, length, width, axel, wheels ,tyres, & finally bearings.
If I was unable to produce a receipt for the make & number of the bearings, he was prepared to dis-assemble the hub to find out!!!! Wow talk about careful.
Waiting for the reply of calculation on Vincent, (Original tare 940 ATM 1250.)
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Post by bobt on Sept 25, 2015 22:41:05 GMT 10
Sorry about my slow response.
Lockyer your reading my mind.. That is the case...
Hey Mustang.. Innocent till proven guilty (well down ere) If your van is registered the 'sherrif' will have access to all the rego info so he/she will know what your registered weight is suppose to be.
One to be aware of if your ATM is great weight than you vehicles towing capacity it is only an offence if the trailer weight actually exceeds the vehicles capacity. (In other words it has to be weighed and not based on a number on a compliance plate.) hmm hope that has not caused confuson..
Hey Mustang you should be happy with the effort your engineer went to.. and the result. My fathers new jayco has a tow ball weight of 220kgs I gave him a hand to set up his new weight distributin hitch. dunno what he has in the van but its heavy for a 16 footer..
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Post by Mustang on Sept 27, 2015 19:03:16 GMT 10
Hey Mustang you should be happy with the effort your engineer went to.. and the result. My fathers new jayco has a tow ball weight of 220kgs I gave him a hand to set up his new weight distributin hitch. dunno what he has in the van but its heavy for a 16 footer.. Wow 220 is high for a 16' , I guess a single axel. Our Modern is only 100KG on the ball, I'm yet to be able to weigh Vincent. |
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Post by bobt on Sept 28, 2015 23:16:50 GMT 10
Yep it is a single axle, he has a tow ball weighing thingie. I have yet to find out what he has loaded in it. I have a tandem that weighs 240 on towball, its all about the location of the axles.. The mustang would not have any trouble with the 100kg..
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Post by snoops on Sept 29, 2015 6:04:53 GMT 10
Hey Mustang, could you please advise me/us everything involved in doing this upgrade starting with 1/ It is a registered camper trailer with an tare....ATM and we need/want to increase/decrease etc etc etc etc As I am thinking of doing the exact same thing with our caravan has the tare listed by Qld transport is 530kgs but when we weighed it well it came in at 700kgs, this only give us 50kgs of extra load atm = 750kgs ?? Thanks mate Just a thought here, if you want to exceed 750kg for the ATM then it will require brakes. I'm guessing it only has an ATM of 750kg because it doesn't? If you've fitted brakes already, please ignore me - my Wife does...  |
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Post by Mustang on Sept 29, 2015 6:58:31 GMT 10
Further to our experience for an upgrade, this is a section of the received report:
In regard to the Viscount Supreme caravan, from my research the following ratings currently apply:
Coupling – 3500 kg
Chassis & Drawbar – 1500 kg ATM (based on calculations)
Tyres – 1700 kg / pair
Axle – Up to 1600 kg (dependent on hubs and bearings)
Hubs and Bearings – 1000 kg (per axle)
Suspension – 1500 kg (per axle)
Therefore I see the maximum allowable ATM would be around 1500 kg. You would need to change the hubs and bearings to suit this higher rating as the current ones are only suitable for 1000kg. This may require different wheel rims though I’m not sure. I would recommend talking to a trailer spare parts supplier for recommendations.
The hubs & bearings have not yet been around the block, so if you are re-newing yours check the ratings, I was surprised ours are only 1000kg rated, guess thats why they were cheaper.
To make all this legal we have to comply with the above & have our engineer sign off on it. (I expect that will be next year now)
For an old single axel I guess we were lucky to achieve 1500Kg I would have been rapt with 1700.
Total to upgrade one modern van, advise on another & the Supreme $246.00, hopefully I dont need new wheels.
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Post by tedalley on Sept 29, 2015 23:11:43 GMT 10
Hey Guys.
Yesterday I put my van over a weighbridge as I've got everything on & in the van including all the cupboard doors (still have handles & trim to finish).
It's a 19ft Franklin, single axle
The original Tare weight was 890kg & GVM 1100kg -- it now comes in at Tare 1520kg & GVM 1640kg.
That's a lot from 890kg to 1540kg ---- 650kg increase but I can only account for adding 500kg the rest must have been an original (890) stuff-up.
The new slipper springs, 50mm square axle, 10" electric brakes, L/cruiser bearings is 1640kg.
New 14" six stud wheels are rated at 890kg ea. or 1780kg
New LT tyres are 850kg ea. or 1700kg.
Now the Guy with the weighbridge also does Rego inspections so he checked the van out and then went onto the RMS site and altered the records so now its all legal.
Today June & I decided to take it camping .... but as its school holidays we are now free camping and it travels well.
Ted
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Post by snoops on Sept 30, 2015 5:35:04 GMT 10
I'll have mine on a weighbridge on Thursday, so I'll report back then. I will have it fully loaded with full water tank, 2 full gas bottles, etc. I've been very conscious of what extra weight I've added, so fingers crossed. 1,300kg is the magic number for me.... It will be close...
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Post by Mustang on Sept 30, 2015 8:07:22 GMT 10
Hi Ted,
Must be a good feeling to be using your van.
The original quoted weights of your 19' van could not possibly have been close.
Our 17' went 920kg stripped out?? your 19' footer @ 890kg???
Apparently it was the case for manufactureres to fib about the tare for customers to believe they could tow easily.
With Our Supreme, Im going to finish it, load it, weigh it, then see if the upgrade at about $1000.00 is worth it?
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Post by viscount6116 on Sept 30, 2015 10:12:56 GMT 10
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Post by doublechevron on Sept 30, 2015 12:06:05 GMT 10
How are you guys getting your loaded weights. As far as I know, the older caravans only have an empty weight specified. I'd have thought any reasonable additional loading would be legal as there is no maximum weight specified. eg: what would the loaded weight for my caravan be ? The tar is about 1600kg..... I'm guessing 2tons max so I don't require break away brakes. realistically, so long as it's safe I don't really care what the final weight is I'm sure the structure and suspension would happily handle 2.5tons .................... seeya, Shane L. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2015 13:34:49 GMT 10
How are you guys getting your loaded weights. As far as I know, the older caravans only have an empty weight specified. I'd have thought any reasonable additional loading would be legal as there is no maximum weight specified. eg: what would the loaded weight for my caravan be ? The tar is about 1600kg..... I'm guessing 2tons max so I don't require break away brakes. realistically, so long as it's safe I don't really care what the final weight is I'm sure the structure and suspension would happily handle 2.5tons .................... seeya, Shane L. Hi Shane
Each State in Australia has different rules re towing and vehicle weights, plus something to keep in mind as well is if you cross in another state you have to be legal with their requirements as well. In Qld the transport department lists a caravans Tare and ATM on the rego papers, get stopped and checked and be overloaded and you could have to get a tilt tray to take the van away + a money penalty (fine). The other problem that seems to have a lot worried is your insurance - it will have some type of clause about the vehicle must be in a roadworthy condition, have an accident and the police deem the caravan is overloaded and your insurance company has the perfect escape clause - un roadworthy. So it is not a case that you can load your caravan to the max and not worry but we should all know what our vans can carry and how much do they weigh when loaded.
Cheers - Which state are you in Shane ??
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2015 13:38:07 GMT 10
Hey Mustang, could you please advise me/us everything involved in doing this upgrade starting with 1/ It is a registered camper trailer with an tare....ATM and we need/want to increase/decrease etc etc etc etc As I am thinking of doing the exact same thing with our caravan has the tare listed by Qld transport is 530kgs but when we weighed it well it came in at 700kgs, this only give us 50kgs of extra load atm = 750kgs ?? Thanks mate Just a thought here, if you want to exceed 750kg for the ATM then it will require brakes. I'm guessing it only has an ATM of 750kg because it doesn't? If you've fitted brakes already, please ignore me - my Wife does... How dare your wife ignore you...I will never do that...yes my van has brakes nice new 9" ones but over ride, it always had them I just updated them to new.  |
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Post by doublechevron on Sept 30, 2015 13:58:24 GMT 10
How are you guys getting your loaded weights. As far as I know, the older caravans only have an empty weight specified. I'd have thought any reasonable additional loading would be legal as there is no maximum weight specified. eg: what would the loaded weight for my caravan be ? The tar is about 1600kg..... I'm guessing 2tons max so I don't require break away brakes. realistically, so long as it's safe I don't really care what the final weight is I'm sure the structure and suspension would happily handle 2.5tons .................... seeya, Shane L. Hi Shane
Each State in Australia has different rules re towing and vehicle weights, plus something to keep in mind as well is if you cross in another state you have to be legal with their requirements as well. In Qld the transport department lists a caravans Tare and ATM on the rego papers, get stopped and checked and be overloaded and you could have to get a tilt tray to take the van away + a money penalty (fine). The other problem that seems to have a lot worried is your insurance - it will have some type of clause about the vehicle must be in a roadworthy condition, have an accident and the police deem the caravan is overloaded and your insurance company has the perfect escape clause - un roadworthy. So it is not a case that you can load your caravan to the max and not worry but we should all know what our vans can carry and how much do they weigh when loaded.
Cheers - Which state are you in Shane ??
I'm in Victoria. I'm not really concerned. with tandem axles we'll be at least 2ton rated regardless of state I'd imagine. The only reason I say 2ton is I know anything greater than that requires break away brakes (which wouldn't be difficult given we have twin axle electric brakes.... I'd just have to fit a battery to the 'van and fit a break-away controller... this is money I don't have and have no intension of spending though!). I might roll it over a local weigh bridge just to see what weights we really are (with a gas bottle fitted, and empty water tank). Our old caravans are generally very lightweight compared to the massively heavy modern 'vans. I think mine has a 1560kg tare. If you look at the spec's of a Jayco Silverline for example.... same size as the old windsor ... the tare weight is 2715 -> 2800kgs .... Bugger me, you'd want medium rigid truck to tow that sort of mass  The idea of a grey nomad that's never towed, hooking something that mass to a v8 turbo diesel cruiser and setting the cruise control to 110km/h and heading down the roads sure does scare me. The old tug has a 4ton tow capacity. It would be very doubtful we would be illegal no matter how stupid the local states rules are seeya Shane L. |
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After I repaired/recycle my Millard I went and got the Tare which is just under 700Kgs (698). The rego papers say it should be 530kgs, now that is totally impossible ! and the ATM is 750kgs...but
