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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 16:24:36 GMT 10
Well still no word from the govt department   BUT there is some news. It seems I was asking Ampfibian the wrong questions, here is the lastest reply: Hi Doug, You are correct and yes these products do fall under declared articles. Even if an electrician puts something together along the same lines and puts a safety tag on it it is still not legal to be sold to the public as it needs to be certified by a lab. The following are the approval numbers for the products; RV-02 = AP number SGS/110126. Approved to AS/NZS 3190 Class H & L. As this product is approved for class H this means it can be used in Industrial environments and construction sites. RV-01 = AP number SGS/110127. Approved to AS/NZS 3105. If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask. Cheers. Regards, David Betterridge AMPFIBIAN ph: 0408367553 I have also confirmed with MY insurance company (Shannons) that they have no issue with the use of this product, however, my mistrust of insurance companies in general says why would they RING me back in response to an email?  Maybe I'm just a bit paranoid. But in any case, I believe that this product is legal to use based on the answers I have had. Also, I have been able to procure a bulk purchase price for these items based on an order of 20 or more for the price of $144.55 ea. That is against a standard price of $159, so I believe this would only be a useful discount if postage is not a factor. So probably only useful for those that attend SEQ (VV) events or live close to Brisbane Northside and can come pick up. If there is enough interest, I will place an order and distribute via events or you can come pick it up whichever you like. I am attending the next 3 SEQ events. If anyone is interested in one of these products to make up an order of 20 please indicate on this thread. I will put up a thread on the VV site to see if there is any interest. Cheers, Doug. |
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Post by andysmq on Mar 20, 2011 2:02:39 GMT 10
Howdy Hotrodtoys, There is nothing to stop you doing your own re-wiring as long as all connections are visible for an electrician to examine for a wiring certificate to be issued. cheers kiwijim  Really!!!!! is that true? cant be actually my mate said it is a $20,000 fine for doing that sort of thing. It would save me a bit of cash if it is true though |
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Post by millard1399 on Apr 13, 2011 18:40:54 GMT 10
G'day All, I noticed yesterday another seller on ebay is selling electrical items that allow you to plug your van into a 10A home socket. The device is similar to the "Clipsal" unit shown above, and looks like this...   The seller has sold sixteen of these units between Nov '09 and Nov '10, at "Buy-it-now" prices ranging from $155 to $170. The next listing for another one of these units was yesterday. I sent a message last night asking if the unit had an approval number from the State electrical approval system, and if so, what was that number please? Early today the item was "removed from ebay by the seller as the item is no longer available". Still haven't had a response to my message. cheers, Al. |
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Post by kiwijim on Apr 13, 2011 21:50:50 GMT 10
Howdy Al, Lets hope that no-one gets fried using that gadget you spotted on E Bay. funny how it is suddenly, no longer available. Here's betting you never get a reply to your question. I think it's a pity we don't have a govt dept called something like Consumer affairs, who could keep a tag on these gadgets appearing for sale, or better still, make E Bay responsible for the advertising of safe products, surly it wouldn't be hard to provide a section on their for sale page where an approval number had to be entered before an add was approved for publishing. kiwijim |
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Post by millard1399 on Apr 19, 2011 11:39:37 GMT 10
I've become a bit of a crusader against these items. There's another bloke making and selling them on ebay from SE Qld. This seller has sold four of them so far, but at least I got a response to my question about the approval number (still haven't heard from the first bloke though). No, no approval number, but they are "made to Australian Standards, using Australian and Italian parts, not Chinese...". Not good enough buddy! No approval means no can sell. I've sent another message back to him to suggest he gets in touch with the Queensland Electrical Safety Office to discuss his product. Minimum $200 fine for selling items not approved and labelled as such. The fight for safety continues... ;D ;D cheers, Al. |
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Post by bobt on Apr 19, 2011 22:24:36 GMT 10
hey millard 1399
good on you for doing this. some one could get hurt as a result of another trying to make a $$ on the side.
Not nice.
bobt
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 14:00:59 GMT 10
;D, Too true Bob, and not just hurt but deaded. 240v stuff will kill you quick as look at you if you don't treat it with great respect and care. Even 24v DC stuff can injure you. I once was working on a 24v truck and my watch shorted from the spanner I was using to tighten the terminal bolts and nuts to the other terminal and gave me a severe burn on the wrist.Ffrom then on I never wear my watch if I'm doing electrical work on anything. I know that 1 1/2 volts won't hurt me but if I get into the habit and keep the habit up I won't do that again and so I'll be just that little bit safer.
People who work with and around me when I'm working on electrical stuff say "Gee Ross, you're pretty pedantic about this. give it a break," I reply, "better to be safe than sorry, it only takes a few moments to be sure, it takes a lot longer to fill out all the paperwork and then there's all the suffering that goes with taking short cuts, maybe even resulting in someone dying as a result of them or someone else taking a short cut."
Cheers,
Ross.
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Post by millard1399 on Apr 20, 2011 22:39:26 GMT 10
Update: After I got the reply from the seller to say the device didn't have approval, I sent a second message suggesting the seller make contact with the Qld Electrical Approval Office and discuss the requirements for the device. I pointed out to the seller that there was a minimum $200 fine for selling equipment that wasn't approved or labelled, as well as potential issues with insurance claims if buyers used a non-approved device. The seller "thanked me for my comments and concerns". 24 hours later (this evening), "This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available for sale". Hopefully they contacted the Office and are now wiser about their obligations. How long before another one of these pops up on ebay?? cheers, Al.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 23:04:48 GMT 10
Hi Al,
The answer to your question, probably tomorrow morning. I know it would be hard to govern but until these sites stipulate that all electrical items must state an approval number number ( australian ) or they will be removed from sale.
If tis was to happen, we may not get everyone but it would slowly diminish
Regards
Teflon
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 20:02:27 GMT 10
hmmm, I went to Bunnings and got a 15 amp and 10 amp plugs and a short section of lead and made up an adaptor (it's about 1 metre long). Only ever use it to run the van lights and a power drill etc when I'm working on the van. Don't think I would ever trust it to be a full on adaptor solution. As has been stated, 240 volt hurts. It only takes a short time to be safe, a much shorter time than the amount of time you spend dead. If there was a fully legal and certified adaptor I would seriously look into buying one though.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 20:08:03 GMT 10
I reckon the Amp phibian that was discussed earlier in this thread is safe and legal to use - they have come up with approval numbers (see reply 26). Also, in that reply I stated that Shannons had not responded via email but they since have done so, so I have a written record of Shannons saying they have no issues with the use of the product.
Cheers
Doug
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Post by kiwijim on May 3, 2011 22:28:55 GMT 10
Howdy Doug, I was wandering around Camec yesterday and came across a stack of the Amp Fibian Power Adapters sitting on the shelf,  When I caught the eye of a sales person I mentioned the debates going on regarding the safety and compliance of these units, When I asked him if they had been issued with any compliance number, his rather Toffy answer was..."Of course they have" then beat a Hastie retreat toward some-one else. 10 minutes later I was at the Check-out, when I noticed the same Sales person with one of the Adapters under his arm, heading for the front counter, Catching his eye, I remarked..... "Gotcha wondering have they" his reply still toffy..... Not at all, but commenced to haul one unit out of it's box, In a real loud voice so every-one in the store could he said...... "There you are, told ya so" as he flipped it over to show all the approvals and compliance numbers stamped on the rear. By the way, there is very little change out of $ 200.00 per unit,  so I don't think I will be grabbing one in the near future some-how. kiwijim |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2011 16:08:50 GMT 10
been following this 10 to 15 amp stuff and wondering what to do... hand was "forced" before Easter with extra guests. My electrician said simple... fit a 15 amp power-point and I'll also make you up a 2 mtr 10 to 15amp lead (if only 10a pp is available); you're using the lights and a small heater, with 10/15 lead have an individually switched power board with re-set button. I did this ($144) and all was ok... I trust my lecky but according to the discussion I've been following this is still unsafe???
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2011 20:25:15 GMT 10
Sands I would say there is "unsafe" and there is "ïllegal" ... or both! kiwijim if you were interested I have an email quoting $148 for the overload only model (single purchase) from Camec over at Acacia Ridge - I'm sure a man of your bargain finding abilities should be able to get them to at least match that!! On par with the cost of sands' set up and legit to boot - as I said earlier in this thread if your paying an electrician to put something together rather than doing your own thing, its on par. Just my thoughts ...  |
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Post by kiwijim on May 5, 2011 18:45:24 GMT 10
Howdy cruisindoug, Thanks for the info, it's amazing the difference in price, depending where you are. I don't think I will twist a wrist to get one of those adapters at a reduced price, no real need for it really, I've got an external 15amp power point out-side the house, handy for work on the Thomson. kiwijim |
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Post by ForumMod on Nov 16, 2013 20:26:08 GMT 10
G'day All, I see in the latest Repco catalogue that they now stock a "Caravan Power Adapter" that will allow conversion of the caravan's 15 amp lead to plug into a 10 amp household power point...  Similar items to the Repco adapter have been listed on ebay for a number of months now. See these two current listings or search for the headings if the listing have finished: CARAVAN MAINS POWER BOX 10A 15A WITH RCD SAFETY SWITCH OVERLOAD CIRCUIT BREAKERPowertech portable RCD power adaptor 15A to 10A caravan I presume these units have received approval from the appropriate Electrical Authority. They won't be weatherproof like the Ampfibian unit, but would be a cheaper alternative if the unit can be kept under cover. cheers, Al. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 18:59:03 GMT 10
Just picked up one of the Repco power adapters, works a treat!
Heaps cheaper than the amphibian, just got to keep it dry.
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Post by snoops on Feb 21, 2014 21:25:48 GMT 10
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents here. As an Electrician I find a lot of this discussion quite interesting - not because I disagree with most of what is being said, but from what hasn't been mentioned. Although the terms 'safe' and 'legal' are used, not much discussion on what is actually safe has been made. Is a 10 to 15 amp home made lead illegal? - maybe, but is it safe or unsafe? To determine that, you need to know what loads your running. If your van has AC and electric hot water, then your on a hiding to nothing - with both of these cranking, you will be giving a 15 amp lead a hard time, so connecting this into a normal 10 amp GPO through a normal duty lead will be asking for trouble.
If, of the other hand you have a mostly original classic van with 4 or 5 lights, and 3 or 4 power points, then you will be struggling to pull more that a few amps unless you have a big electric hot plate or something running - even then, it's doubtful you would get to 10 amps.
My van has 3 power points, and once fully set up will have a TV and not much else. Lighting will all be low voltage LED as we won't be using powered sites bugger all, so running this from a normal supply through a modified lead while at home is quite safe. Added to that, I'll be fitting a couple of breakers and a main switch which will be a 10 amp breaker anyway, so I'll be limiting my supply that way.
Also, as a caravan is not permanently connected to the mains through a hard wired connection, I would have thought that it would be considered an appliance and could be wired by anyone. Not sure though if there are specific wiring rules for vans - I work on industrial PLC control systems, so I could be mistaken here and would be happy to be corrected.
Cheers - Snoops.
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Post by ForumMod on Feb 22, 2014 12:03:59 GMT 10
Snoops, I guess caravans are not considered as 'appliances' because people actually reside in them. There are standards for electrical wiring of all "residential properties", which includes caravans, mobile workers crib rooms, construction site huts, etc etc. I tend to think in Watts for electricity consumption in the van, only because most appliances are rated in Watts. A typical cordless electric kettle is around 2000 to 2200 Watts, and a typical 2-slice toaster is around 750 Watts. Have both of those going when making your brekky, and you're getting pretty close to the 3600 Watts maximum that 15 amp leads can carry. The one thing about 15 amp electrical leads that I've never been able to understand is why they only have 1.3mm 2 of copper wiring in each core, when residential properties require 2.5mm 2 cable for power outlets, which are only rated at 10 amps. Why is it that the actual wiring inside a caravan has to be 2.5mm 2 for power, (or 1.5mm 2 for lighting), and yet the 15 amp lead supplying power to the van is only 1.3mm 2?? Considering residential property wiring standards were increased a few years ago from 2.0mm 2 to 2.5mm 2 for power, I wonder when caravan leads will get a higher standard?? It's almost like the 15amp lead is the fuse in the whole electrical circuit. I recently posted some information on the Vintage Caravans forum about the vintage van I'm currently rebuilding. When I examined the original 10 amp power inlet socket on the side of the van, I discovered some rather disturbing features. This is the socket, and this type of socket can still be found on vans from the 1970s...  This is the back of my socket, after the caravan was demolished and the socket was salvaged...  The first thing I noticed was that the Earth terminal screw had been replaced by a new screw and washer...  When I examined the Earth terminal more closely, I realised the earth wire was actually sitting on top of the bakelite socket fitting, and not down in the recess like it was supposed to. In fact, the earth wire wasn't really making contact with the earth terminal blade at all, so the van was never really earthed through this socket. I took the terminal pins out of the socket, and you can see how corroded the Earth terminal is...    After I had removed the terminal pins, I discovered there had been some arcing in the bakelite socket where the Positive terminal was located. The bakelite had burnt and broken in that position...   I decided this inlet socket was far too dodgy to use again in the rebuilt caravan, so I ditched it and bought a new Clipsal socket. Being a vintage van, I had to work out a way of hiding the socket so it didn't look out of place on the side of the van. After a fair bit of thinking and construction work, I fitted the socket in behind a flap door...   I wouldn't trust those old Clipsal power sockets as far as I could kick 'em. Who knows who might have tampered with it over the years (like mine was) and what sort of condition they might be in. I think it's a no-brainer to chuck 'em and get a modern Clipsal power inlet fitted. cheers, Al. |
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Post by snoops on Feb 22, 2014 19:00:03 GMT 10
That flap covering the inlet is a neat idea. As for the wiring sizes, the 2.5mm in your house will be connected to a 16 amp breaker, and must be able to take this amount of current indefinitely in all conditions you may find in your home, like in insulation, etc. The conductors are a 7 strand construction and has a lower current carrying capacity than the multi strand in the flexible lead you use on your van. The insulation on the flex is generally of a higher rating as well, giving it a greater rating and it is also assumed that a flex like that won't be permanently installed in insulation. 1.3 mm in a flex will easily handle 15 amps.  Also, the conductors in your house are derated a heap from what they could actually carry safely. The maximum temperature rise allowed by the regs is very low so you end up with a rating like we have - and a high safety factor built in - all good. |
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Post by 2lateagain on Feb 23, 2014 9:51:29 GMT 10
I might as well add my bit having just had our Millard rewired. We called our normal electrician to have a look, he had no problem taking on the job.
He stated that the 1.5mm wire was sufficient as it will carry 15 amp without a problem and it had to have a 15 amp RCD fitted and that gives a margin of safety without the wires getting hot. He also stated that the 2.5mm will carry 20 amp without problem.
I asked if I could run the wires and he had no problem with that so long as it was all properly done with bushing through the frame and earth wires in place. This was all being done with the cladding not in place, the power point were fitted where required and away we went. The wiring was in place when I found that on the Caravans Plus site there was some information that specified that 2.5mm should be used for all power points and that is all that is fitted to our van, all lighting is LED.
After much deliberation I replaced all the 1.5mm wire with 2.5mm only to find that I was unable to get the wires to sit in the wall cavity where 3 lots of wires were at the back of any power point, the wire was so inflexible that I was unable to remove the power point from the wall and get it back into place without causing damage to the inner wall. There is a 30 mm cavity in the Millard walls. So it was all replaced with the 1.5mm except for the section that goes from the inlet to the back of the RCD. All was in place and ready to start cladding and the electrician was called back to pass it all and he knocked it back on the grounds that the outlet for outside use did not have its own switch and wanted the current Australian Standard AS/NZS3001/2008 before he would go any further.
After locating a copy of the Standard for 2001 and much reading, it states " Fixed wiring forming part of the electrical installation within registrable relocatable premises shall consist of multi stranded insulated and sheathed cables or flexible cords of having not less than seven strands and a conductor cross section of area not less than 1mm square".
That did not help me with the power outlet. After many phone calls and many hours of looking through numerous sites I called the electrician back and showed what I had found in electrician catalogues where it stated that the outlets were designed for use on the outside and none of them were fitted with separate switches I suggested that I would put a switch on the inside of the van, but that was not acceptable as it was not located near the switch, so the decision was made to leave the offending item out. When I agreed to this he stated that I would probably fit it after he had gone to which I just smiled and he then ok'ed the fitting of the outlet as the information that I had supplied showed him that it had been passed by the Electrical Authority for the use that it was designed for and there was nothing in the Aust. Standard that specified that it required a separate switch. I also found out that he does not have to supply any forms to say that he completed the work as nothing is required on the electrical side for registration. All wiring has been passed and the electrician was happy.
Graham
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Post by ForumMod on Feb 23, 2014 15:24:30 GMT 10
It's funny you should mention the outside outlet, Graham, because I was concerned about the outlet fitted to my 1992 Windsor van when I discovered it wasn't separately switched. As soon as power was connected to the van, this outlet became 'live', and I wondered whether that was classified as being 'electrically safe'...  It made me nervous enough to spend some time testing the circuits to find the feed cable in the wall, and then fitting a switch on the inside wall to operate the outside outlet...   The wall switch is only a 'temporary' measure. Eventually I'd like to take the side cladding off and put a proper switch next to the outlet, but I've never seen a double-pole weatherproof switch that goes with these types of outlets. I notice there's a new product being listed on ebay, which is 'apparently' approved for caravan use: Weatherproof Power Point Double Pole 240 Volt 10 Amp GPO IP65 Rated  With regard to your Millard wiring, I had the same issue with the Millard poptop I had. 2.5mm wiring was too thick to join behind the power point in the wall cavity, so I ended up putting mounting blocks on the walls, and fitting the GPO to that. That gave another 40mm of space to join multiple cables. I thought the mounting blocks might look a bit 'dorky' on the walls, but they weren't a problem for us. cheers, Al. |
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Post by 2lateagain on Feb 23, 2014 17:51:56 GMT 10
Al, I think what finally swayed our electrician was the fact that the regulations for caravans in the relevant standard state: External sockets-outlets. "Any external socket-outlet mounted on the exterior of a relocatable premises shall comply with AS1939 with a minimum degree of protection IP24" which I think has been up graded a bit in the later standards, but it does not mention a switch. Our outlet had 'double pole' on the back, but like yours was live when the power was connected. We had numerous suggestions as to why it had those words, but it all came back to the RCD fitted as it is just as easy to stick a metal something into an inside power outlet that is switched on as the one on the outside that has no switch. We ended up putting it a bit higher up the side of the van hopefully away from children, but then it is possible to remove the 15amp lead and still have access to live wires, but again it is mandatory now that all sites that are powered be fitted with a suitable RCD. Might have to look a bit further at the double power weatherproof point you showed. I think I would be happier with something like I have as we have always plugged in a power board outside to get enough outlets to run fridges and on occasions, cooking, and sometimes charging of batteries for various items. Graham  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 23:17:16 GMT 10
HI Graham
[1] I think you will find that they are "shuttered" outlets - Only switched on when a 2or 3pin plug is fully pushed in.
An approved form of protection. The part number could be checked against the makerscatologue to confirm
[2] Power booards complying to AS3105 are specifically forbidden for use with vans etc [Standards AS /NZS 3001]
[3] An extension lead SHALL have the same rated plug & socket under the Standards. To make one up ,sell, is illegal & fines can be given.
It is a proscribed article & SHALL comply with the Standards.
[4] Depends on the State of manufacture. All states except Vic consider such is licensed electrician's work & SHALL comply to AS300o & AS3001
Vic does consider it an appliance that ordinary factory workers can wire BUT require it to be inspected & tested & issued with a Compliance Cert by a LICENSED Electrical contractor
[5] The cable size is dependent on length & type of load. Size & lengths are set out in the Approval Standards AS 3199:
1.5 mm is limited to 25M at 15A provide there are no heavy surge currents [motor starting involved]@.5 is actually rated @20 in domestic situations
subject to
2.5 Actually is rated @20a subject to ambient temp & free cooling
[6] The outlet should be limited to 15 Amps. All vans Shall now be fitted with a 16A RCD, MCB
[7] That inlet socket does not comply even though it has a cover. It does not meet the IP rating required with the extension lead plugged in.
PeterQ
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Post by 2lateagain on Aug 4, 2014 8:55:54 GMT 10
Peter, Yes, that was one of the things that was mentioned that they were "shuttered" by the catalogue and the supplier, but it was possible to push something thin into any one of the 3 pin slots and eventually find the live wire. Any that I have looked at since are all the same so we just go with the flow. Now that it fitted to the van it is nearly impossible to open the outlet as the cover jambs locking it into place and I have trouble opening it.
Graham
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Maybe I'm just a bit paranoid.
